How dependent is the pilot on the WSO?

[Notso]

On 5/27/2022 at 1:48 AM, Digitalvole said:

Hehe I was hoping this thread would tell me if I could control most/all the F15E’s systems from the front seat.

Yes, you can.  Most everything system control wise is controllable from both cockpits once turned on and set up correctly, with a few exceptions.  For example, the Auto-Acquisition radar modes are pilot only.  As is changing the Master mode.  The WSO has some controls in the back like power and mode setup for the TGP, RWR, CMD, ICS, EWWS, etc.  But once they are all turned on and set, then either cockpit can use those systems interchangeably.  There are a couple of HOTAS functions the Pilot doesn't have that the WSO does and vice versa.  But those are the exceptions.  I would say 90%+ of the HOTAS can do the same things in either cockpit.  The HOTAS switch sequence itself is usually different due to the different control configs - i.e. Front stick & throttle vs The two Hand-controllers in the back.  But the end result of the HOTAS sequence is the same.

Now "could" a solo pilot fly in combat without a WSO?  No, not really unless he didn't need the systems that can only be turned on in the back.  Maybe if the Crew chief turned them on once #2 motor was started and before the canopy is closed and before #1 motor was started.  Even the story of the reporter flying in "combat" was a very carefully managed event in a very low threat scenario and they really didn't do much except support the wingman.  And I'm sure they had to teach her to turn on certain switches in the back once the jet was running and after takeoff.  So I wouldn't use that example as proof that pilots can fly the jet solo in combat.  My understanding is the EX was redesigned such that they could manage it by themselves in a mostly A/A fight, but retained the rear seat for more complex missions where a WSO would be value added.  

[Digitalvole]

Thanks @Notso

Sounds fine for sp DCS then, woop woop!

[Notso]

3 hours ago, Digitalvole said:

Thanks @Notso

Sounds fine for sp DCS then, woop woop!

Yeah, it should be great for SP.  But the REAL fun is to go crewed in MP.  If you get two guys working well together, it will be unbeatable IMHO.

[Hoirtel]

I'm thinking that once we start to learn this aircraft we will basically be able jump in either seat? That will be excellent in MP as it will be so easy. Much easier than the apache even as there is potentially no extra buttons to bind.

Edited June 5, 2022 by Hoirtel

[Nahen]

11 hours ago, Notso said:

Sorry (not sorry) but no.  A WSO is not an F-15E pilot. 

Did I write somewhere that WSO is the F-15E pilot ??
Can you tell the difference between "pilot" and "F-15E pilot"? - it's a pilot and it's a pilot.
Can you tell the difference between "driver" and "formula one driver"? - it's the driver and that's the driver.
Can you tell the difference between "doctor" and "vascular surgeon"? - he's a doctor, and he's a doctor.
Can you tell "soldier" from "special forces soldier"? - he is a soldier and he is a soldier.
Can you tell the difference between "ship" and "aircraf carrier"? - it's a ship and it's a ship.

Someone else doesn't understand?

[Krez]

7 hours ago, Nahen said:

Did I write somewhere that WSO is the F-15E pilot ??
Can you tell the difference between "pilot" and "F-15E pilot"? - it's a pilot and it's a pilot.
Can you tell the difference between "driver" and "formula one driver"? - it's the driver and that's the driver.
Can you tell the difference between "doctor" and "vascular surgeon"? - he's a doctor, and he's a doctor.
Can you tell "soldier" from "special forces soldier"? - he is a soldier and he is a soldier.
Can you tell the difference between "ship" and "aircraf carrier"? - it's a ship and it's a ship.

Someone else doesn't understand?

You are correct. He could be considered a pilot.

Also, he will never be in the front seat.

[Alpha]

OMG. It´s been pointed out multiple times that a WSO is not a pilot. They don´t get pilot training, don´t get a pilot rating and their job is not the one of the pilot. 

In my UPT class there was a guy who used to be a F-15E WSO. He went to UPT and there he became a pilot when he got his wings (later on he went to the Mudhen again, this time as a pilot). He had a civil private Pilot license before - but he would never ever have embarrassed himself by claiming to be a pilot while being a Mudhen WSO. Long story short: just as Notso said - a WSO is NOT a Pilot. End of story. 

Edited June 5, 2022 by Alpha

[Nahen]

16 hours ago, Krez said:

You are correct. He could be considered a pilot.

Also, he will never be in the front seat.

In the F-15E certainly do not. Completely agree.

[Dragon1-1]

On 6/4/2022 at 9:29 PM, Notso said:

My understanding is the EX was redesigned such that they could manage it by themselves in a mostly A/A fight, but retained the rear seat for more complex missions where a WSO would be value added.  

Actually, it's the A/A fight that perhaps benefits from a WSO the most. Air to ground is mostly flipping switches and watching stuff go boom, unless you're using a MITL weapon that's more involved, or operating in a high threat environment where someone needs to look out for SAMs and flak. Effective air to air, OTOH, basically padlocks the pilot to the bandit when in WVR, and it's risky to try and maintain SA while keeping track of the bandit, lest you lose tally. A WSO can monitor your six, call out your airspeed and be of great help when you're turning with another plane. BVR, I suppose, would be the most "soloable" activity in the EX, but even in BVR you need to be prepared to go to WVR, particularly since the Mudhen can in many cases be outran by dedicated fighters.

On 6/5/2022 at 9:16 AM, Nahen said:

Someone else doesn't understand?

You. It's irrelevant that a WSO can fly something. What's relevant is that if he ever tried saying he's a pilot to a girl in the bar, any actual pilot within earshot would be really quick to correct him (and probably steal his girl while at it, just to make the point). He can yell "Hey, I can fly a DA20, totally a pilot!" all he wants. He's a WSO or a GIB, end of the story. In the USAF, the term "pilot" is only for frontseaters. Just like we don't call Hornet drivers pilots (except when we forget and there aren't any around to remind us...), they're Navy or Marine aviators.

[Notso]

On 6/5/2022 at 12:16 AM, Nahen said:

Did I write somewhere that WSO is the F-15E pilot ??
Can you tell the difference between "pilot" and "F-15E pilot"? - it's a pilot and it's a pilot.
Can you tell the difference between "driver" and "formula one driver"? - it's the driver and that's the driver.
Can you tell the difference between "doctor" and "vascular surgeon"? - he's a doctor, and he's a doctor.
Can you tell "soldier" from "special forces soldier"? - he is a soldier and he is a soldier.
Can you tell the difference between "ship" and "aircraf carrier"? - it's a ship and it's a ship.

Someone else doesn't understand?

Most WSO's are not rated pilots either.  Not even civilian PPLs.  Some are, most are not.  They get almost no actual formal stick and rudder training beyond the basics.  I'm a former WSO.  I had a commercial ME rating by the time I retired.  It still did not make me a USAF manned pilot.  I never considered myself a "fighter pilot" in the strict sense of the word as in doing the JOB.  But of course fighter WSOs are "fighter pilots" in the community sense.  But that's a different topic for another day.  

There are WSO's that literally go their entire career in the SE and never touch the stick except for brief times.  Some don't want to fly.  Some but not many.  And it's not expected of them.  Riding along in the back seat doing your WSO job and occasionally flying the jet for <profanity>s and giggles doesn't make one a pilot even in the loosest of understanding of the word.  

It is clear that the only one here who is not understanding is YOU.  

FFS!  

[Rainmaker]

2 hours ago, Notso said:

Most WSO's are not rated pilots either.  Not even civilian PPLs.  Some are, most are not.  They get almost no actual formal stick and rudder training beyond the basics.  I'm a former WSO.  I had a commercial ME rating by the time I retired.  It still did not make me a USAF manned pilot.  I never considered myself a "fighter pilot" in the strict sense of the word as in doing the JOB.  But of course fighter WSOs are "fighter pilots" in the community sense.  But that's a different topic for another day.  

There are WSO's that literally go their entire career in the SE and never touch the stick except for brief times.  Some don't want to fly.  Some but not many.  And it's not expected of them.  Riding along in the back seat doing your WSO job and occasionally flying the jet for <profanity>s and giggles doesn't make one a pilot even in the loosest of understanding of the word.  

It is clear that the only one here who is not understanding is YOU.  

FFS!  

Dude, I put the guy on ignore a year ago. It’ll save you some headaches. 

[Digitalvole]

On 6/5/2022 at 3:24 AM, Notso said:

Yeah, it should be great for SP.  But the REAL fun is to go crewed in MP.  If you get two guys working well together, it will be unbeatable IMHO.

And by the sounds of it being a WSO, unlike a Tomcat RIO, doesn’t need to be a full time occupation as you can learn most of the systems as the pilot in single player.

I don’t have the time to learn all a RIO needs to know, and I’d rather be flying the plane anyway. But this sounds like it’s much easier to take turns in each role. Good news indeed! Now all I need is a friend… 

[Dragon1-1]

13 hours ago, Notso said:

But of course fighter WSOs are "fighter pilots" in the community sense.  But that's a different topic for another day.  

Do you have WSOs vs. pilots volleyball matches? It seems similar to the relationship Tomcat drivers have with RIOs, though you probably keep your shirts on while at it.  Bio talked about how it looks like in the Navy, dunno if you've seen his podcasts, but I wonder how a WSO compares to that. At times, such as in BVR or when doing intercepts, the RIO seems to have basically ran the show from the backseat, he didn't have a stick, but he did have a button to pickle the AIM-54. Do you guys also "take the reins" (if not the actual stick) when doing GBU-15 runs or somesuch?

[cfrag]

On 6/5/2022 at 9:16 AM, Nahen said:

Can you tell the difference between "pilot" and "F-15E pilot"? - it's a pilot and it's a pilot.

This reminds me of a line in the classic US SitCom "Friends" when main protagonist Ross' mother said something about another person that Ross was jealous of: "well, he's a real doctor", which greatly upset Ross. The joke being that Ross, having a PhD in Paleontology is a real doctor, while the other guy "merely" was an MD (some inside academia regard an MD scientifically to be an inferior form of doctorate compared to a fully-blown PhD in other disciplines). Not all doctors are medical doctors, which can cause confusion outside of academia (and is a frequent punch line in "Friends"). Even more so with pilots. My grandfather was a pilot. His job was to make sure large ships could safely leave the harbour. Some pilots steer ships and of those, most can't fly aircraft. Unlike a rose, a pilot isn't a pilot is a pilot is a pilot.

Anyway - I feel the underlying question here is: will the F15-E be fun to play in single-player (ok, no doubt about that), and can the player while flying the aircraft employ the full range of weapons by themselves without having to hot-switch seats nor commanding an AI? Unlike, for example, the Apache, which "only" allows you to indirectly operate some weapons via AI (I love the Apache, and understand why this segregation of duties is implemented. For me it makes it slightly less satisfying to play compared to, say, the Hog, Shark, or Bug where I can do that directly).

So, in Razbam's module for DCS,  can

1. the F15E's PIC (single-player) fly the plane and deliver all weaponry by themselves (like e.g., in a Hornet) without switching seats or using AI?
2. How about when on an MP server (it bugs me to no end that I can't hot-swap in the Apache when on an MP server)?

I guess I'll purchase anyway, but I'd still like to know

Edited July 2, 2022 by cfrag

[Steel Jaw]

Long thread to argue over the merits of self-loading baggage...says this (v) single seat Bug pilot.

[QuiGon]

This made me wonder:





If almost everything is possible from the front pit, how does the pilot do these things without the two additional sticks?

[shultlker]

3小时前，QuiGon说：

This made me wonder:





If almost everything is possible from the front pit, how does the pilot do these things without the two additional sticks?

WSO can control(or command) two screens at the same time, one handcontroller for each side. Pilot can only do one, so HOTAS will be enough in front seat.

[Dragon1-1]

Looks like a good reason to invest in the F-16EX stick at some point.  I've got a long wishlist of upgrades that will go before that, but this arrangement does, in fact, give you a dual TDC.

[QuiGon]

2 hours ago, shultlker said:

WSO can control(or command) two screens at the same time, one handcontroller for each side. Pilot can only do one, so HOTAS will be enough in front seat.

Good to know. Can the WSO do the same or does he has to use each handcontroller for each side?

[Rainmaker]

2 hours ago, QuiGon said:

Good to know. Can the WSO do the same or does he has to use each handcontroller for each side?

They are dedicated to each side. They wont cross center. 

[QuiGon]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:55 PM, Rainmaker said:

They are dedicated to each side. They wont cross center. 

Interesting, thanks. I have to say I find that kinda odd to have dedicated controllers for each display. Personally I prefer being able to just use one controller and use it to switch between the displays.

[RED]

3 hours ago, QuiGon said:

Interesting, thanks. I have to say I find that kinda odd to have dedicated controllers for each display. Personally I prefer being able to just use one controller and use it to switch between the displays.

Each side can control two displays afaik. So think of it like two cockpits of e.g. the Hornet next to each other.