correct as is Noticed a Bug in AH-64D Navigation system, in the latest patch DCS 2.7.14.23966 Open Beta.

[Punisher74]

Ok let me set the mood, When entering Target points in the Navigation of the AH-64D. I noticed and the Abbreviations for the enemy Targets Identification do not work like they did in the last patch and the ones before them. 

Step 1: choose add (left button 2)

Step 2: TG (Left Button 6)

Step 3: IDENT (left Button 1)

Step 4: Look to Keypad and Enter the 2 Letter Abbreviation Lets Use AE (Enemy Armor) 

Step 5: The 2 letter Abbreviation just flashes.

Now I tried this with all the Enemy Abbreviations they all just flash.

Now things like WP, CM, HZ all work fine. its just TG

[Andartu]

Yep, you are now the first cause I just wanted to report that too

So yes I can confirm, noticed the same since the last update. Most of the abbreviation inputs (yes of course those form the list) don't work anymore. Not only enemy one's, also things like SP, US etc. do not get accepted anymore. Quite a bummer tbh.

[Raptor9]

1 hour ago, Punisher74 said:

Ok let me set the mood, When entering Target points in the Navigation of the AH-64D. I noticed and the Abbreviations for the enemy Targets Identification do not work like they did in the last patch and the ones before them. 

Step 2: TG (Left Button 6)

Step 4: Look to Keypad and Enter the 2 Letter Abbreviation Lets Use AE (Enemy Armor) 

Now I tried this with all the Enemy Abbreviations they all just flash.

Now things like WP, CM, HZ all work fine. its just TG

You tried to enter an enemy Control Measure IDENT code as a Target/Threat type of point, which doesn't work.  If you want an enemy armor icon (AE), you need to select CM as the type first.  Enemy Control Measures are not the same as Target/Threat points.

1 hour ago, Andartu said:

Most of the abbreviation inputs (yes of course those form the list) don't work anymore. Not only enemy one's, also things like SP, US etc. do not get accepted anymore.

Up until recently, you didn't need to bother ensuring the correct point type was chosen for the IDENT code you were using, because the TSD would automatically change the point type to match the IDENT code entered, which isn't accurate to the real-life avionics (further, there are a couple codes that are duplicated that require the delineation, like BP and SP are used more than once). Now that the DCS AH-64D has been corrected to how it should behave, you need to ensure you select the correct point type.

[Punisher74]

12 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

You tried to enter an enemy Control Measure IDENT code as a Target/Threat type of point, which doesn't work.  If you want an enemy armor icon (AE), you need to select CM as the type first.  Enemy Control Measures are not the same as Target/Threat points.

Up until recently, you didn't need to bother ensuring the correct point type was chosen for the IDENT code you were using, because the TSD would automatically change the point type to match the IDENT code entered, which isn't accurate to the real-life avionics (further, there are a couple codes that are duplicated that require the delineation, like BP and SP are used more than once). Now that the DCS AH-64D has been corrected to how it should behave, you need to ensure you select the correct point type.

Actually No, I entered and CM, applied it, then went through the steps for TG I'll be making a video showing the issue.

[Punisher74]

The video below shows the issue in real-time.

 

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Punisher74

[Floyd1212]

The Ident "AE" is for enemy armor, which is in the Control Measure category, not the Target category (pg 353 of the manual).  The data on the kneeboard needs to be updated to reflect the correct category, now that the module is being more strict with the category usage.

[Andartu]

13 hours ago, Raptor9 said:

You tried to enter an enemy Control Measure IDENT code as a Target/Threat type of point, which doesn't work.  If you want an enemy armor icon (AE), you need to select CM as the type first.  Enemy Control Measures are not the same as Target/Threat points.

Up until recently, you didn't need to bother ensuring the correct point type was chosen for the IDENT code you were using, because the TSD would automatically change the point type to match the IDENT code entered, which isn't accurate to the real-life avionics (further, there are a couple codes that are duplicated that require the delineation, like BP and SP are used more than once). Now that the DCS AH-64D has been corrected to how it should behave, you need to ensure you select the correct point type.

Gotcha, thanks.

[Raptor9]

2 hours ago, Punisher74 said:

The video below shows the issue in real-time.

Your point type was set to TG when you entered the second point, not CM. This is why it did not work, as I mentioned previously. As Floyd1212 pointed out, the kneeboard in the mission is in error, it needs to be a CM if you intend to use the Enemy Armor icon using the AE Ident code.

If you are unsure what codes are what category, you can access the ABR page (T4) from the TSD>POINT page prior to adding a point, and review what Ident codes you wish to use and what point type they are under.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Raptor9

[Punisher74]

16 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Your point type was set to TG when you entered the second point, not CM. This is why it did not work, as I mentioned previously. As Floyd1212 pointed out, the kneeboard in the mission is in error, it needs to be a CM if you intend to use the Enemy Armor icon using the AE Ident code.

Yeah that's not how it was be. Following the Training Video TG is for Enemy Targets, CM is for Friendly Units. HZ hazards, WP waypoints. When the heli Launched TG was used so All Enemy Targets.

Also I noticed Friendly SAM sites show as Red. Enemy Armor 

 

Adding a Point Using “Cursor Drop”
When the “cursor drop” method is used to add a point, the default points that are dropped at the cursor location are listed below:
• WP (L3) – Waypoint (WP)
• HZ (L4) – Tower Under 1000’ (TU)
• CM (L5) – Checkpoint (CP)
• TG (L6) – Target Point (TG)

Enemy Armor is not a checkpoint its a Target Point

 

Edited May 23, 2022 by Punisher74

[Punisher74]

31 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

Your point type was set to TG when you entered the second point, not CM. This is why it did not work, as I mentioned previously. As Floyd1212 pointed out, the kneeboard in the mission is in error, it needs to be a CM if you intend to use the Enemy Armor icon using the AE Ident code.

If you are unsure what codes are what category, you can access the ABR page (T4) from the TSD>POINT page prior to adding a point, and review what Ident codes you wish to use and what point type they are under.

 

I'm sorry to disagree Raptor9. Viewing WAG's video on TSD points directly show adding enemy Armor (AE) as a Target Point. I'm linking that said Video and timepoint. Time to advance to is 7:10

 

[Raptor9]

45 minutes ago, Punisher74 said:

Viewing WAG's video on TSD points directly show adding enemy Armor (AE) as a Target Point. I'm linking that said Video and timepoint. Time to advance to is 7:10

Look at it more closely. He has CM selected as the point type when entering AE as the Ident, not TG. He started by entering TG, but it switched to CM.  This is an error in the video. Enemy Armor is a Control Measure (CM), not a Target (TG) point.  You can use it for targeting purposes, but Enemy Armor is a CM.

1 hour ago, Punisher74 said:

Yeah that's not how it was be. Following the Training Video TG is for Enemy Targets, CM is for Friendly Units. HZ hazards, WP waypoints. When the heli Launched TG was used so All Enemy Targets.

• WP (L3) – Waypoint (WP)
• HZ (L4) – Tower Under 1000’ (TU)
• CM (L5) – Checkpoint (CP)
• TG (L6) – Target Point (TG)

Enemy Armor is not a checkpoint its a Target Point

A CM is a Control Measure. A CP/Checkpoint is one type of CM. Checkpoint is just the default CM point used if you cursor drop a CM point before entering an Ident code. Control Measures may consist of Friendly CMs, Enemy CMs, or General CMs. This is all laid out in the DCS AH-64D manual, starting at page 188, and specifically at the bottom of page 190 and the top of 191.

As I said, the kneeboards in these training missions are wrong. You can disagree all you want.

Edited May 23, 2022 by Raptor9
Added manual page numbers for reference

[rcjonessnp175]

Speaking of kneeboard s they need the full grid reference…..  the grids don’t annotate you went from a 36s to a 37s grid zone and it should.

[Floyd1212]

@Raptor9 Is there an explanation for why enemy armor is in the CM category, and not a TG?  It seems strange that something like an enemy tank is not considered a "Target" since that is pretty much what the Apache was designed to be targeting.

Maybe there is some context for what a "Control Measure" is in the military that would bring some light to the way this system is designed?

[Kharrn]

Raptor already explained it to the point, but to add onto it, i want to point again to the manual.

It says "Table 3. Target/Threats" page 354. From my pov: Singular / Plural. So 1 type Target point (which is Ident: TG) and a lot of Threats. 

One single tank is not a threat to my Apache per se. And i dont want my map to be cluttered with single tank symbols. 

CM for me provide the measure of telling me "look here - possible tank company" (hence the symbology for Ident AE i assume). Or tank btl, depending on what my intel brief said  If i know my mission is to engage a tank company, there could be CM AE points for each platoon, pre briefed as estimated by Intel. Then i would normally know what the doctrine and dispersion of said platoons is and can thereby guesstimate dislocation.

Hope this might explain a little wihtout going into military detail.

If i find a single tank sitting alone in the countryside, i could still give it a Target Point (Ident TG) to reference. On second thought i would ask myself if that tank has gone AWOL, if the intel brief was bullsh, or if i will find his "oh so few" friends soon...

K

[Raptor9]

Enemy armor is not "a tank", the icon is a graphical military symbol that represents an armor unit. So if an Enemy Armor control measure is placed, with the Free Text of "1AB" as an example, that might be the enemy's 1st Armor Brigade (or however it is designated by that country's military). Control Measures by their nature are intended to be placed to assist with maintaining situational awareness of the Apache team while they conduct their mission across the battlefield. This is why CM's are not just friendly and enemy unit icons, but also include airfields, FARPs, ground lights, bridges, railheads, even military echelon markers that can be used with boundary lines.

All of these graphics are intended to be able to graphically depict overlays that might be placed on a map in a TOC, but on the TSD in the cockpit so the aircrews can see where their team is on the battlefield in time and space. You're taking something like this:

...and displaying it in similar fashion on this:

Having said all that, all these various points and point types (Waypoints, Hazards, Control Measures, Targets/Threats) are treated the same way in the avionics. You can make any of them your ACQ source and slave your TADS to it, you can enter their coordinates in the same fashion, you can set any of them as your nav destination, etc. The only exception is that Target/Threat points cannot be added to a route sequence.

If you want to place an Enemy Armor control measure icon on a single tank, you can do that all you want.  But, if you want to place any point onto the TSD, you have to select the correct point type that corresponds to the Ident code you plan on using. It makes no difference what point you use for what. You can use an Enemy Armor point to mark a taco stand in downtown Las Vegas if you want, but that doesn't change how it needs to be entered into the TSD. I'm not trying to be snarky, just trying to drive the point across with some levity.