Virpil Collective Counterweight Easy Build

[Toumal]

Parts list:

1 aluminium L beam, thickness can be between 1 and 4mm, length 36cm / 14in

420g adhesive balancing weights

Drill holes to match the cover plate.

Result: One balanced boi. Yes some form of oil dampener would be nice but this is like a few $ in parts and the collective stays where you left it because let's face it no burglar would steal a virpil vollective that has janky stuff screwed onto it.

Next week: ECM manufacturers hate this simple trick! How to avoid missiles by shooting a flare pistol out the window.

[horstweihrauch]

Nice carpet:)

thanks for the idea. I tried to copy that, because I am not satisfied with the stock set up. Even with the dampening screws turned in it moves in some positions.

[dburne]

I am on the fence on ordering a Virpil Collective for this very reason. I posted asking about it on the Virpil forums but not much response. Not too keen on spending the dollars for a Virpil Collective and then find myself needing to look at doing something like this to get it good. I would not be much happy with that.

Edited May 23, 2022 by dburne

[Toumal]

15 hours ago, horstweihrauch said:

Nice carpet:)

thanks for the idea. I tried to copy that, because I am not satisfied with the stock set up. Even with the dampening screws turned in it moves in some positions.

Thanks, the carpet used to be quite expensive. Carpets lose value faster than a car.

 

12 hours ago, dburne said:

I am on the fence on ordering a Virpil Collective for this very reason. I posted asking about it on the Virpil forums but not much response. Not too keen on spending the dollars for a Virpil Collective and then find myself needing to look at doing something like this to get it good. I would not be much happy with that.

 

I'm satisfied overall. Some things could be improved, like the up/down toggle on the Sharka grip.

I guess they could've also built a counter-force spring system into that relatively large box. Maybe in a future product.

[Mr_sukebe]

Brilliantly simple solution.  Love it

[sirrah]

23 hours ago, Toumal said:

Parts list:

1 aluminium L beam, thickness can be between 1 and 4mm, length 36cm / 14in

420g adhesive balancing weights

Drill holes to match the cover plate.

Result: One balanced boi. Yes some form of oil dampener would be nice but this is like a few $ in parts and the collective stays where you left it because let's face it no burglar would steal a virpil vollective that has janky stuff screwed onto it.

Next week: ECM manufacturers hate this simple trick! How to avoid missiles by shooting a flare pistol out the window.

Simple, cheap, functional! I love it! 

(might copy this idea next time my Collective needs another tension screw tightening)

What are those black "pads" you use for counterweight?

 

13 hours ago, dburne said:

I am on the fence on ordering a Virpil Collective for this very reason. I posted asking about it on the Virpil forums but not much response. Not too keen on spending the dollars for a Virpil Collective and then find myself needing to look at doing something like this to get it good. I would not be much happy with that.

 

Sorry @dburne, I just saw your reply to my post on the Virpil forum (I hardly ever visit there).

Although I am of opinion that Virpil's whole tightening screws principle on their collective is a bit of a design flaw, I wouldn't want to say it makes their product not worth the money. Of course, you don't need the collective to fly helo's, it can perfectly be done with a regular HOTAS, but a collective really does add to immersion. At least that's my opinion. If I knew about the dodgy tightening screw up front, I think I would still have bought it. Oh and fwiw, I really love the ALPHA-L grip I use on it.

Also, at the moment I tightened the tension screws so much, that my collective definitely keeps its position and doesn't "free fall". But, as you might imagine this comes at the cost of slight movement stiction. I got used to it and can't really be bothered about it anymore, but I suppose that if you use a counterweight such as the OP describes, you can loosen up the tension screws a bit and stiction will be gone.

[dburne]

1 hour ago, sirrah said:

Simple, cheap, functional! I love it! 

(might copy this idea next time my Collective needs another tension screw tightening)

What are those black "pads" you use for counterweight?

 

Sorry @dburne, I just saw your reply to my post on the Virpil forum (I hardly ever visit there).

Although I am of opinion that Virpil's whole tightening screws principle on their collective is a bit of a design flaw, I wouldn't want to say it makes their product not worth the money. Of course, you don't need the collective to fly helo's, it can perfectly be done with a regular HOTAS, but a collective really does add to immersion. At least that's my opinion. If I knew about the dodgy tightening screw up front, I think I would still have bought it. Oh and fwiw, I really love the ALPHA-L grip I use on it.

Also, at the moment I tightened the tension screws so much, that my collective definitely keeps its position and doesn't "free fall". But, as you might imagine this comes at the cost of slight movement stiction. I got used to it and can't really be bothered about it anymore, but I suppose that if you use a counterweight such as the OP describes, you can loosen up the tension screws a bit and stiction will be gone.

 

Ok thanks much for the info!

[horstweihrauch]

4 hours ago, sirrah said:

Simple, cheap, functional! I love it! 

(might copy this idea next time my Collective needs another tension screw tightening)

What are those black "pads" you use for counterweight?

 

Sorry @dburne, I just saw your reply to my post on the Virpil forum (I hardly ever visit there).

Although I am of opinion that Virpil's whole tightening screws principle on their collective is a bit of a design flaw, I wouldn't want to say it makes their product not worth the money. Of course, you don't need the collective to fly helo's, it can perfectly be done with a regular HOTAS, but a collective really does add to immersion. At least that's my opinion. If I knew about the dodgy tightening screw up front, I think I would still have bought it. Oh and fwiw, I really love the ALPHA-L grip I use on it.

Also, at the moment I tightened the tension screws so much, that my collective definitely keeps its position and doesn't "free fall". But, as you might imagine this comes at the cost of slight movement stiction. I got used to it and can't really be bothered about it anymore, but I suppose that if you use a counterweight such as the OP describes, you can loosen up the tension screws a bit and stiction will be gone.

Exactly, this stiction is my problem too with the screws tightened up. If I can get rid of that with something like OPs solution, I am 100% satisfied with the Virpil collective🫶

[Dallas88B]

The solution is OK, there is another one using a damper too. https://forum.dcs.world/topic/282447-rotor-tcs-plus-damper-mod/

I wrote to Virpil asking about the problem and suggested solutions. They said:

"Currently, we're not aware about such issue, and it shouldn't be needed to extremely tighten the collective"

Obviously untrue, given that Virpil themselves are addressing folk with this problem on their own forum. But clearly it ain't going to be covered by "warranty" since the problem doesn't exist.

Edited May 25, 2022 by Dallas88B

[Toumal]

18 hours ago, sirrah said:

What are those black "pads" you use for counterweight?

Search amazon for "adhesive steel wheel weights". You need about 450-500 grams.

8 hours ago, Dallas88B said:

The solution is OK, there is another one using a damper too. https://forum.dcs.world/topic/282447-rotor-tcs-plus-damper-mod/

I think for the ultimate realism you need to do both - the dampener alone won't stop the collective from drooping

I flew with the counterweights yesterday and, yeah, I am not going back. Much better fine-grained control, you end up using the collective a lot more actively.

[Dallas88B]

2 hours ago, Toumal said:

the dampener alone won't stop the collective from drooping

Seems lots of folk think that... but it depends on the dampener...

https://youtu.be/kFTfDaeopJM?t=32 

[Thermal]

That looks like a nice easy solution Toutmal.  Just paint it black and someone might actually want to steal it!

The sticktion/collective free-fall trade off is a pain - and there is additional pain because if you adjust for a "minimum sticktion" setup, then you need to keep adjust the clamping force due to wear.

A gas strut might work, but you'd need to be pretty precise to not make things worse - and all a dampner is doing is adding additional friction to the system - your trading one friction for another.


 
 

[Scott-S6]

I have an adjustable damper - it does not remove the problem. It does mean that less clutch force is needed and less frequent adjustment is needed. It also means that when your clutch slips the collective falls very slowly and steadily rather than the accelerating drop that we get without. 

Damper and counterweight is the answer, at that point you completely remove the need for the clutch.

Edited May 31, 2022 by Scott-S6

[Rile]

I don’t want to detract from Toumal’s splendid work (or wonderful carpet!) but here’s my experience. 
 

I have the basic TCS Base with Hawk-60 grip.  I struggled initially to balance it; too tight so it was jerky, or too loose so it kept falling.  But incrementally, I found that each time I made adjustments things improved slightly.  
The final result - the collective moves with an application equivalent to 120grams(when just above the bottom stop). Sorry, I don’t own a ‘strain-gauge/force-metre, but a packet of 4 Knorr Stock-pots placed on the extreme of the grip caused it to lower. 
 

My advice - With the collective in the horizontal, fully tighten both friction screws. Then loosen both by an equal amount at a time(1 rotation, or half etc) until the collective cannot hold itself when lifted just above the horizontal(greatest lever arm against gravity).  Final adjustments to perfect your needs will probably depend on manufacturing imperfections; for me, the upper friction is about half a turn looser than the lower.

I guess this won’t be the perfect solution for everyone, and I appreciate that I could be just lucky, but I just know that by now I’d have several scars and bruises at knee height if I had Toumal’s manufacturing skills

[sirrah]

2 hours ago, Rile said:

I don’t want to detract from Toumal’s splendid work (or wonderful carpet!) but here’s my experience. 
 

I have the basic TCS Base with Hawk-60 grip.  I struggled initially to balance it; too tight so it was jerky, or too loose so it kept falling.  But incrementally, I found that each time I made adjustments things improved slightly.  
The final result - the collective moves with an application equivalent to 120grams(when just above the bottom stop). Sorry, I don’t own a ‘strain-gauge/force-metre, but a packet of 4 Knorr Stock-pots placed on the extreme of the grip caused it to lower. 
 

My advice - With the collective in the horizontal, fully tighten both friction screws. Then loosen both by an equal amount at a time(1 rotation, or half etc) until the collective cannot hold itself when lifted just above the horizontal(greatest lever arm against gravity).  Final adjustments to perfect your needs will probably depend on manufacturing imperfections; for me, the upper friction is about half a turn looser than the lower.

I guess this won’t be the perfect solution for everyone, and I appreciate that I could be just lucky, but I just know that by now I’d have several scars and bruises at knee height if I had Toumal’s manufacturing skills

You are right, that carpet indeed is a looker 

[Toumal]

On 5/31/2022 at 5:52 AM, Scott-S6 said:

Damper and counterweight is the answer, at that point you completely remove the need for the clutch.

 

This. I'm going to look into options for that in the future, once the YawVR2 is here. And I'm going to do exactly what you proposed once the dampener is installed: More or less completely unscrew the clutch, because then it's not needed anymore.

[haaaake]

On 6/5/2022 at 2:32 AM, Rile said:

I don’t want to detract from Toumal’s splendid work (or wonderful carpet!) but here’s my experience. 
 

I have the basic TCS Base with Hawk-60 grip.  I struggled initially to balance it; too tight so it was jerky, or too loose so it kept falling.  But incrementally, I found that each time I made adjustments things improved slightly.  
The final result - the collective moves with an application equivalent to 120grams(when just above the bottom stop). Sorry, I don’t own a ‘strain-gauge/force-metre, but a packet of 4 Knorr Stock-pots placed on the extreme of the grip caused it to lower. 
 

My advice - With the collective in the horizontal, fully tighten both friction screws. Then loosen both by an equal amount at a time(1 rotation, or half etc) until the collective cannot hold itself when lifted just above the horizontal(greatest lever arm against gravity).  Final adjustments to perfect your needs will probably depend on manufacturing imperfections; for me, the upper friction is about half a turn looser than the lower.

I guess this won’t be the perfect solution for everyone, and I appreciate that I could be just lucky, but I just know that by now I’d have several scars and bruises at knee height if I had Toumal’s manufacturing skills

Excellent advice. I would imagine many are just not tightening evenly or not experimenting enough. Haven't really had issues with it drooping and initial movement feels great to me. Actually feels like it is something mechanical which is great. Tightening down both then backing them off is a great way to approach it.