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Yaw AP authority lost


jojojung

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Seems like the yaw AP heading hold authority was weakend very much. Prior to the last beta patch you can take off without touching the padals strait up only by adding collective when you had turned on the yaw AP. When there was much torque to compensate the padels were moved automaticaly to compansate the torque. Now with the last patch with yaw AP on the heli stays  in line only a few seconds and when you add more and more collective it gets spinning although the yaw AP is set on.
It was tested in the same quickmission in beta and stable. The new Microswitch settings is in the default (pre patch) setting. Enable/Disable by deflection and the paddle trimmer is set to off.
The yaw AP doesnt change the paddles movement at all they will stay in the neutral position the hole time. Doesnt matter if the yaw AP is engaged or not in the beta. Unlike in the sable or the mi8 where the yaw AP will change paddle movment when torque required that to stay at the heading.
Hoverstarts and Hoverlandings are more complicated now in the hind because you have to add paddle on your own. So the yaw AP lost its use quite a bit now. Of course with yaw AP off the tendancies are stronger.

I do not know if this is now realistic or before patch was realistic behavior for the yaw AP but there is a significant change in the authority of the yaw AP and that is not cleared though the patch notes. Thats why here is the bug report.
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1 hour ago, jojojung said:

Seems like the yaw AP heading hold authority was weakend very much. Prior to the last beta patch you can take off without touching the padals strait up only by adding collective when you had turned on the yaw AP. When there was much torque to compensate the padels were moved automaticaly to compansate the torque. Now with the last patch with yaw AP on the heli stays  in line only a few seconds and when you add more and more collective it gets spinning although the yaw AP is set on.
It was tested in the same quickmission in beta and stable. The new Microswitch settings is in the default (pre patch) setting. Enable/Disable by deflection and the paddle trimmer is set to off.
The yaw AP doesnt change the paddles movement at all they will stay in the neutral position the hole time. Doesnt matter if the yaw AP is engaged or not in the beta. Unlike in the sable or the mi8 where the yaw AP will change paddle movment when torque required that to stay at the heading.
Hoverstarts and Hoverlandings are more complicated now in the hind because you have to add paddle on your own. So the yaw AP lost its use quite a bit now. Of course with yaw AP off the tendancies are stronger.

I do not know if this is now realistic or before patch was realistic behavior for the yaw AP but there is a significant change in the authority of the yaw AP and that is not cleared though the patch notes. Thats why here is the bug report.

  Yeah the mode where, if the Yaw AP channel runs out of authority in heading hold the pedals use the hydraulic SDV-5000-OA dampener to trim them, and you see a yellow cryllic letter in the Right Control + Enter menu signifying this, is now gone. It would trim your pedals. I’m afraid it might be from a bug report I made where I was trying to say it would be nice if it wouldn’t automatically trim my pedals with Pedal Trimmer turned off. 
 

Still present in Mi-8 however. After patch I tried to find real life source for this, and I was surprised to find almost nothing directly stating it. The closest to describing it any of my dozens of Mi-24D/V/P/35M manuals got was actually the Cold War Air Musuem manual freely available on line made public by FOIA and originally made by US threat evaluation. Technically for D but with addendums for V/P where there are differences. It says this about Yaw Channel, seeming to call it “Displacement mode,”

“ If the pilot’s feet are not on the pedals, the autopilot maintains the preset yaw angle, 
Switching the directional flight control servo to displacement mode as needed to introduce large corrections. The speed of pedal movement in displacement mode is controlled by the hydraulic pedal damper in the directional control system. The yaw channel includes a relay which prevents the servo from switching to displacement mode if the pedal damper is disengaged. When the pilot’s feet are on the pedals, the sub-pedal microswitches activate and the yaw channel operates in stabilization mode. The yaw rate signal passes through a low-pass filter to prevent the servo from drifting to the stops while executing manual turns with the yaw channel engaged.”

 

  Full manual available publicly if you search for it. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • ED Team

Was already addressed in May 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/changelog/openbeta/2.7.14.23966/

 

DCS: Mi-24P Hind by Eagle Dynamics

  • Added: Anti-torque pedals trim options Can choose between:
    • Instant Trim (does not read input for 0.5 sec. after trim button is pressed)
    • Central Position Trimmer Mode (does not read input until physical pedals axis returned to center)
  • Added: Anti-torque pedals automatic microswitch options. Can choose between:
    • Disable by setting pedal axis to neutral (This logic was built in module before, it engages microswitch as soon as yaw axis is deflected from neutral position)
    • Enable/Disable by presence/absence of pedal movement (this logic is added and it activates microswithing only for duration of pedal axis movement, deactivates it when axis stop moving)
    • Automatic Microswitch Off (disables any automatic pedals microswitch logic, control is only manual)
  • Added: Anti-torque pedals microswitch button bind (this bind allows manual control of pedals microswitch which will set heading autopilot channel to standby/adjust mode while it is pressed)
  • Added: Anti-torque Pedals Trimmer Button options (Unlike Mi-8, real Mi-24P pedals don't trim with cyclic trim button. In DCS trim for pedals is made for convenience):
    • Cyclic Trimmer Button (T) (Pressing Cyclic trim button will also trim virtual pedals axis, keyboard "T" by default)
    • Pedals Microswitch Button (Y) (Pressing pedals microswitch button will also trim virtual pedals axis, keyboard "Y" by default)
    • Do not trim (Will not trim virtual pedals axis, this is for pedals without springs etc. those which are stay where you left them)
  • Fixed: Map lighting switch is in wrong position when mission is start at night
  • Fixed: PU-38. Latitude knob does not change value when adjusted slowly
  • Fixed: Pilot-Operator's button for warning lights test does not work
  • Fixed: HUD reticle, textures distortion on the edges
  • Fixed: SPO-10 red highlight for "NO SOUND" warning does not work
  • Fixed: Full aft cyclic limits left rudder authority (https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300741-rear-cyclic-limits-left-pedal/)

 

 

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vor 42 Minuten schrieb BIGNEWY:

Was already addressed in May 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/changelog/openbeta/2.7.14.23966/

 

DCS: Mi-24P Hind by Eagle Dynamics

  • Added: Anti-torque pedals trim options Can choose between:
    • Instant Trim (does not read input for 0.5 sec. after trim button is pressed)
    • Central Position Trimmer Mode (does not read input until physical pedals axis returned to center)
  • Added: Anti-torque pedals automatic microswitch options. Can choose between:
    • Disable by setting pedal axis to neutral (This logic was built in module before, it engages microswitch as soon as yaw axis is deflected from neutral position)
    • Enable/Disable by presence/absence of pedal movement (this logic is added and it activates microswithing only for duration of pedal axis movement, deactivates it when axis stop moving)
    • Automatic Microswitch Off (disables any automatic pedals microswitch logic, control is only manual)
  • Added: Anti-torque pedals microswitch button bind (this bind allows manual control of pedals microswitch which will set heading autopilot channel to standby/adjust mode while it is pressed)
  • Added: Anti-torque Pedals Trimmer Button options (Unlike Mi-8, real Mi-24P pedals don't trim with cyclic trim button. In DCS trim for pedals is made for convenience):
    • Cyclic Trimmer Button (T) (Pressing Cyclic trim button will also trim virtual pedals axis, keyboard "T" by default)
    • Pedals Microswitch Button (Y) (Pressing pedals microswitch button will also trim virtual pedals axis, keyboard "Y" by default)
    • Do not trim (Will not trim virtual pedals axis, this is for pedals without springs etc. those which are stay where you left them)
  • Fixed: Map lighting switch is in wrong position when mission is start at night
  • Fixed: PU-38. Latitude knob does not change value when adjusted slowly
  • Fixed: Pilot-Operator's button for warning lights test does not work
  • Fixed: HUD reticle, textures distortion on the edges
  • Fixed: SPO-10 red highlight for "NO SOUND" warning does not work
  • Fixed: Full aft cyclic limits left rudder authority (https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300741-rear-cyclic-limits-left-pedal/)

 

 

Thanks for the quick response but I think the full aft cyclic bug was something completely other bug then this one I discribed above, right? I dont get the connection between the two bugs. In the linked thread there is no connection too. Seems like one bug is fixed and now another bug is in there.
The Problem now is that there is no paddle movement done by the yaw AP at all to hold the heading and this should work IRL like @AeriaGloria stated above with a reference to the MI24 manual.

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  • ED Team

I will ask the team 

edit: the team are investigating

thanks

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49 minutes ago, jojojung said:

Thanks for the quick response but I think the full aft cyclic bug was something completely other bug then this one I discribed above, right? I dont get the connection between the two bugs. In the linked thread there is no connection too. Seems like one bug is fixed and now another bug is in there.
The Problem now is that there is no paddle movement done by the yaw AP at all to hold the heading and this should work IRL like @AeriaGloria stated above with a reference to the MI24 manual.

It’s possible the Mi-24 doesn’t have it and it was a carry over from the Mi-8 in DCS. That one Cold War Air Musuem manual seems to mention, but it is a manual made my US Military threat evaluation in the 90s from captured Hinds, and it’s possible that section isn’t 100% clear or translated perfectly. I can’t find reference to it in the dozen other Mi-24 manuals I have that are straight from Mil. 

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10 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

It’s possible the Mi-24 doesn’t have it and it was a carry over from the Mi-8 in DCS. That one Cold War Air Musuem manual seems to mention, but it is a manual made my US Military threat evaluation in the 90s from captured Hinds, and it’s possible that section isn’t 100% clear or translated perfectly. I can’t find reference to it in the dozen other Mi-24 manuals I have that are straight from Mil. 

It does have it.

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