missing info New AI - Some Comments

[TOMCATZ]

Hi,

 

The new AI shows a lot of good things. First of all, that the enemy planes from now on actually want to survive and do not pursue their target until the last fuel and then eject with the ejector seat. 

I also like that they use the crank maneuver well and also turn cold when under fire to fly the energy off the missile. 

BUT:

In the last few days I have unfortunately had to watch all enemy aircraft dogging missiles. MiGs and Flankers were able to dodge 3 to 6 missiles without any problems and then achieve aerial victory themselves with an infrared missile. 
No matter if in the deepest night or in the densest clouds. It is simply disgusting!

Now one could argue: But online players in multiplayer mode also show this behavior! Yes, exactly: Online PLAYERS! 
Such behavior has nothing whatsoever to do with realism, is absolutely unbelievable and turns my DCS into a dogfight simulator because the missiles have obviously become worthless. 

In the end, there were a number of interesting improvements. I hope that ED will continue to develop artificial intelligence and neutralize this arcade behaviour. 

 

Cheers

TOM

[MARLAN_]

I think it's mostly an issue with the current modeling of the radar.

Notching & radar look-down (and look-up lately) is extremely over tuned.

That said, regarding the AI I think the nose dive is silly and unrealistic. It's emulating the DCS PvP "meta" which has evolved that way because of the aforementioned notching/look-down and doesn't take into account other factors such as fuel conservation, potential S/A threats, and reattack energy (which currently isn't very important to manage again, due to the notching/look-down issues forces WVR)

[TOMCATZ]

Hello,

Okay - after a few days of testing, I have now come to the following final opinion: The new AI's behavior is a bug!

Short explanation: 
The AI dodges the missiles too well.

Explanation: 
The AI shows a behavior under fire that requires a lot of experience and long training. The maneuvers shown here can only be trained and perfected in years. If you set the AI to "inexperienced", it will still fly almost perfect beam maneuvers, go for the notch or pull at the right moment. Not to mention newer designs like the Flanker or comparable machines. Certain missiles, like the Phoenix, have no hit probability at all - even against inexperienced AI pilots in very old aircraft like the MiG-21 or F-5. 

Consequences:
The AI is never tired. It is not affected by poor visibility, weather or stress. Now that it perfectly avoids enemy missiles, success for the user is almost impossible. In the best case he returns to his own base without weapons, without firings but still alive. In the worst case, a user is shot down over and over again. 

What does that lead to?
Experienced users who have known this simulator for decades will be happy to have to master new challenges. But they have had many years to train certain things in order to succeed. If necessary, through high-risk maneuvers and a lot of risk, which hardly corresponds to real world experience.
New users are very quickly overwhelmed, frustrated and could prefer to devote themselves to other simulators and hobbies. 

So- The programmer of the AI made an impressive, a brilliant job in that special part. But he made it too good. 

Thank you very much. 

Cheers

TOM

[Fastbreak]

This software has taught me one thing. Brilliance, pace TOM, is an unbelievably impressive expression in terms of DCS ...  

 

[Ironhand]

@TOMCATZ, I can’t say that your experience has been mine. They have gotten better at avoiding missiles but they still die about 75% of the time. I’ll admit that it takes a few more missiles to do it, though. And they frequently don’t die until now until well within visual range.

Perhaps it’s actually a missile rather than AI issue. I am usually in a Flanker cockpit and, so, normally use a real missile like the R-27ER instead the toy AMRAAMs most people use.  In all seriousness, though, I wonder if the new behavior is simply highlighting the deficiencies in modeling certain missiles.

[Fastbreak]

AI has been weighed, it has been measured, and it has been found wanting. In what world could it possibly convince me?

An ED's Tale 2008-2022

[Ahogephilia]

On 5/27/2022 at 6:02 PM, TOMCATZ said:

Hello,

Okay - after a few days of testing, I have now come to the following final opinion: The new AI's behavior is a bug!

Short explanation: 
The AI dodges the missiles too well.

 

I completely agree.

Abnormal behavior occurs frequently, especially in FC3 Fighters.
They are never Hit by mid-range missiles. They don't try to avoid it, but  missiles "Dumb" away off.

I've tested more than 100+ Phoenix shots in last three days and never hit F-15s, J-11s, MIGs and etc.

AIM-54 was perfect and fully guided(30k, 1.0mach, 30~40nm, TTI=6, Target Size=normal or small, MLC=OFF), but it was always missed at terminal Guidance stage.

 

But, when target was changed to F-16, they were shot down by more than 70 percent.

 

Edited July 15, 2022 by Ahogephilia

[NineLine]

On 5/27/2022 at 2:02 AM, TOMCATZ said:

Hello,

Okay - after a few days of testing, I have now come to the following final opinion: The new AI's behavior is a bug!

Short explanation: 
The AI dodges the missiles too well.

Explanation: 
The AI shows a behavior under fire that requires a lot of experience and long training. The maneuvers shown here can only be trained and perfected in years. If you set the AI to "inexperienced", it will still fly almost perfect beam maneuvers, go for the notch or pull at the right moment. Not to mention newer designs like the Flanker or comparable machines. Certain missiles, like the Phoenix, have no hit probability at all - even against inexperienced AI pilots in very old aircraft like the MiG-21 or F-5. 

Consequences:
The AI is never tired. It is not affected by poor visibility, weather or stress. Now that it perfectly avoids enemy missiles, success for the user is almost impossible. In the best case he returns to his own base without weapons, without firings but still alive. In the worst case, a user is shot down over and over again. 

What does that lead to?
Experienced users who have known this simulator for decades will be happy to have to master new challenges. But they have had many years to train certain things in order to succeed. If necessary, through high-risk maneuvers and a lot of risk, which hardly corresponds to real world experience.
New users are very quickly overwhelmed, frustrated and could prefer to devote themselves to other simulators and hobbies. 

So- The programmer of the AI made an impressive, a brilliant job in that special part. But he made it too good. 

Thank you very much. 

Cheers

TOM

Please supply a track of issues you are reporting, thanks.