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Submitting mods to ED for DCS core implementation


sirrah

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Perhaps this has been discussed here before, so sorry if I missed that, but I've been wondering about this for a while now:

  1. How complicated is it to submit user made mods to ED?
  2. How open is ED really, to implementing user made mods into their core game?
  3. Do mod makers at all try submitting their files? (does this happen a lot, and if so, why do we see so little of them implemented?)

I can imagine that this stuff is complicated for extensive mods like the A-4 or UH-60, but how about static objects? There are some astonishing static object mods out there that could really bring mission building to a next level. So I was wondering, are these mods not submitted to ED, or doesn't ED embrace them if they are?

(So far I'm only aware of ED adding some user made skins to the core game, but maybe there's already more going on that I know of?)

 

Personally I stopped using mods all together, not because I don't like them (quite the contrary, some of them are mind-blowingly beautiful), but just because in the past I've had troubles with mods after DCS patches and at some point I noticed these troubles each time cost me quite some valuable DCS time. Aside from that I sometimes like to make missions and I don't want other people to have to download mods to play them.

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i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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other than skins, which are done through a competition, i'm not aware of any player mod's that have been directly integrated into the game, some developer led changes have been similar to player mods. albeit with different impacts and effects.

I can't speak for ED, but, typically adopting a user driven MOD is fraught with difficulties, legal and support effort being the main ones that come to mind; skins are "comparatively" simple to maintain, and the competition basically says you agree to give it to ED.


Edited by speed-of-heat
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21 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Personally I stopped using mods all together, not because I don't like them (quite the contrary, some of them are mind-blowingly beautiful), but just because in the past I've had troubles with mods after DCS patches and at some point I noticed these troubles each time cost me quite some valuable DCS time.
 

 

On my case, I simply disable all user Mods previous to updating, then test run DCS and then re-enable them. This way, whenever I find an issue I know that it isn't caused by DCS itself and thus don't lose time diagnosing it.

 

21 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Aside from that I sometimes like to make missions and I don't want other people to have to download mods to play them.

 

I fly DCS mostly for myself, so I simply don’t share most of my missions 🙂

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4 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

I fly DCS mostly for myself, so I simply don’t share most of my missions 🙂

Knowing about the quality missions that you create, that's a waste 😟

 

Still, I wonder about my initial questions. Does anyone actually ever try and submit their mods to ED?

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System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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4 minutes ago, sirrah said:

Still, I wonder about my initial questions. Does anyone actually ever try and submit their mods to ED?


I can remembera couple of cases: the i-16 and the mb-339 both started life as user Mods.

 

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1 minute ago, Rudel_chw said:


I can remembera couple of cases: the i-16 and the mb-339 both started life as user Mods.

But how about simpler ("easy to implement") stuff, like static objects?

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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ED have never really encouraged 'user mods' as such, I think it would be fair to say they tolerate them simply because they have very little control over what people do on their own computers. I do recollect how some 'user mods' suddenly stopped working because of changes to the game - changes that appeared to be needed for any variety of reasons but changes that broke a  mod, sometimes permanently. 

Creating 'user mods' can be a fun, I have loads of my own, but once you put them out there for general use you are wide open to years of grief and complaints when the game changes and the mod goes 'tits up'  - I have the full collection of T Shirts on that one !!!

Getting ED to include a 'user mod' into the game is fraught with other problems, as many have found, I can think of several really good mods that didnt survive that experience or fell by the wayside whilst climbing the greasy pole !. 

It is what it is, their game, their rules, get used to that and you can still enjoy yourself without struggling to navigate the official mod route. If you want fame and fortune then you have to be ready to take the knocks. 

ps: I should have added that a few 'user mods' have found their way into the game over the years, and flourished, it isn't all doom and gloom ... no doubt others will disagree with me but I'm too old in the tooth to argue.


Edited by crazyeddie
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1 hour ago, crazyeddie said:

ED have never really encouraged 'user mods' as such, I think it would be fair to say they tolerate them simply because they have very little control over what people do on their own computers. I do recollect how some 'user mods' suddenly stopped working because of changes to the game - changes that appeared to be needed for any variety of reasons but changes that broke a  mod, sometimes permanently. 

Creating 'user mods' can be a fun, I have loads of my own, but once you put them out there for general use you are wide open to years of grief and complaints when the game changes and the mod goes 'tits up'  - I have the full collection of T Shirts on that one !!!

Getting ED to include a 'user mod' into the game is fraught with other problems, as many have found, I can think of several really good mods that didnt survive that experience or fell by the wayside whilst climbing the greasy pole !. 

It is what it is, their game, their rules, get used to that and you can still enjoy yourself without struggling to navigate the official mod route. If you want fame and fortune then you have to be ready to take the knocks. 

ps: I should have added that a few 'user mods' have found their way into the game over the years, and flourished, it isn't all doom and gloom ... no doubt others will disagree with me but I'm too old in the tooth to argue.

 

Ah ok, I thought at some point I read a post from one of CM's somewhere here, where they "encourage" mod creators to submit their mods. But maybe I misinterpreted that.

 

Also, and this question probably proves how little I know of this, can user made static object break at all with a DCS patch? Don't think I ever had issues with those. For moving/flying unit mods, I can imagine a patch can disturb things, but for static objects?

 

(Sorry that I keep bringing up the "static objects" as example, but it's the part where I expect improvement would be enormous, with relatively low effort)

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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2 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

On my case, I simply disable all user Mods previous to updating, then test run DCS and then re-enable them. This way, whenever I find an issue I know that it isn't caused by DCS itself and thus don't lose time diagnosing it.

 

This Mod Mangers for the win

SYSTEM SPECS: Hardware Intel Corei7-12700KF @ 5.1/5.3p & 3.8e GHz, 64Gb RAM, 4090 FE, Dell S2716DG, Virpil T50CM3 Throttle, WinWIng Orion 2 & F-16EX + MFG Crosswinds V2, Varjo Aero
SOFTWARE: Microsoft Windows 11, VoiceAttack & VAICOM PRO

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5 minutes ago, speed-of-heat said:

This Mod Mangers for the win

I know about the ease of mod managers, but it would be more convenient if at least some of the more widely used mods, were implemented in the core game.

But I know I'm just day dreaming of "what could be" 😅

System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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2 hours ago, sirrah said:

Ah ok, I thought at some point I read a post from one of CM's somewhere here, where they "encourage" mod creators to submit their mods. But maybe I misinterpreted that.

 

Also, and this question probably proves how little I know of this, can user made static object break at all with a DCS patch? Don't think I ever had issues with those. For moving/flying unit mods, I can imagine a patch can disturb things, but for static objects?

 

(Sorry that I keep bringing up the "static objects" as example, but it's the part where I expect improvement would be enormous, with relatively low effort)

Years ago I asked ED to add more statics to the core game, to give us more variety in the ME, I asked several times over many years.   Nothing much ever came of that request, so I did my own mod (using their stuff) and uploaded it to the site.  This is all stuff that they could easily add, 95% of it is their own stuff from current and earlier versions of the game, a lot of it repainted to suit my own particular taste but everything can be repainted again to add new or different liveries, if you have the skills to do it.

Static building are easy to do and dont break to game when its updated, by statics you could also include any number of vehicles as well, anything that is just eye candy isnt going to do any harm.  I have collected mountains of it over the years, some is good, much of it is crap, I pick and chose what I want to improve my experience.  I only uploaded my static buildings mod to the site because people kept asking for an update, so I redid it for 2.7. 

Thats my experience in this game, and I first came here when it was called Falcon - that was way back in the day when the flight characteristics (or FM as its now known) for the jets was similar to a house brick being dropped from a tall building - yep - that good !!!

Knowing what I know from past experience with ED I would never entertain any further attempts to have it included in the game, I follow that ancient soldiers principal, identify the problem, work out a solution and overcome it.  Each update brings new problems - apply the principal and get on with enjoying it. 

I use JSGME, simple to use and set up, I remove all my mods from the game before I update and re-apply when its done, works a treat.  Stuff in your Saved Games folder can be more problematic if you have an issue but you soon get to know what might be causing it, strip them out one by one until you find it, then fix it.   

 

https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3321755/


Edited by crazyeddie
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If you made them yourself (not from websites) and they are at ED standards then you might have a chance. 

The only way to make sense out of change is to plunge into it, move with it, and join the dance.

"Me, the 13th Duke of Wybourne, here on the ED forums at 3 'o' clock in the morning, with my reputation. Are they mad.."

https://ko-fi.com/joey45

 

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On 5/26/2022 at 11:17 PM, prccowboy said:

That was in 1995, so you are allowed a little memory lapse 😉

Su-27_Flanker_Coverart.jpg

 

I'm old, I cant even remember what I had for breakfast ... and I always have porridge !

I think there was actually an even earlier version of the game just called Flanker ... I seem to remember a very early Rapocha class of ship that was basically a floating box, the aircraft were all 512 x 512 standard skins and it really was poor quality compared to todays game.  Its come a long way I'm delighted to say. 

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@sirrah

 

Nineline posted these guidelines for submitting a mod to ED some month ago on a discord:

 

Quote

If you wish to sell a 3rd party product for DCS, you need to first obtain a license agreement. To do so, you will first need to provide a project proposal that proves to us that you have the capability to create a quality product. When sending us your proposal, we highly suggest including the following items:

1- Screen shots and video of external 3D model and 6 DOF cockpit.
2- Porting of test object with cockpit into DCS World.
3- Implementation of basic cockpit instruments like altimeter, airspeed indicator, vertical velocity indicator, G-meter, fuel gauge, etc.
4- Resume of team members that shows experience in C++ and LUA coding. This needs to be in regards to both cockpit systems and flight dynamics.
5- Design document of the aircraft that includes detailed explanation of implementation of all cockpit systems.
6- Proof of documentation for aircraft operations manuals, including sensor and weapon systems.
7- If possible, proof of access to Subject Matter Experts on the aircraft (pilots that have flown the aircraft).

Please send your complete proposal to matt@eagledynamics.ch

Thanks

 

 

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5 hours ago, Copprhead said:

@sirrah

 

Nineline posted these guidelines for submitting a mod to ED some month ago on a discord:

 

 

 

Thanks Copperhead, but I was more thinking about users that want to share their mods for free. I mean, there are lot's of mod creators out there (in fact, most of them) that just share their mods for free and I can imagine that it would only make them happy/proud if their mod was included in DCS core. Surely for those that freely want to share/submit their hard work, ED could perhaps make the submitting process more easy.

(the requirements listed in Nineline's post that you quoted, seem very much focused on flyable aircraft and not so much on, for instance, static objects)

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System specs:

 

i7-8700K @stock speed - GTX 1080TI @ stock speed - AsRock Extreme4 Z370 - 32GB DDR4 @3GHz- 500GB SSD - 2TB nvme - 650W PSU

HP Reverb G1 v2 - Saitek Pro pedals - TM Warthog HOTAS - TM F/A-18 Grip - TM Cougar HOTAS (NN-Dan mod) & (throttle standalone mod) - VIRPIL VPC Rotor TCS Plus with ALPHA-L grip - Pointctrl & aux banks <-- must have for VR users!! - Andre's SimShaker Jetpad - Fully adjustable DIY playseat - VA+VAICOM

 

~ That nuke might not have been the best of ideas, Sir... the enemy is furious ~ GUMMBAH

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ED continue to evolve the game in different ways, many things in the way maps work has changed over the years and without knowing where they are going next you just have to try and second guess the next change, or make adjustments for the latest change. Sometimes you can do that, sometimes you cannot. 

Flyable Mods appear to suffer the worst from abandonment its true, but map mods come and go as well. Keeping up with the changes is very time consuming for the people making those mods and its not hard to understand why many just give up.  The more complex your Mod the more likely it is to suffer from evolutionary corruption and abandonment. 

For myself I always aim to work to the 'KISS' principal - Keep It Simple Stupid, but I have had my disappointments as well, too many to remember now.  I could make many arguments for why ED should make it easier for modders, how they could make it easier, but in reality it is their game and they have plans to which we are not party and if what we offer is not part of that evolution then so be it,  that's how it is.  

I could even argue they definitely discourage Mods, but that would be unfair, we have the Saved Games facility which gives us huge amounts of freedom to do what we want to their game, sometimes we just have to settle for the option that suits our personal needs best.  I think I fit in that box somewhere. 

Life is full of disappointments - Emilia Clarke refused to marry me when I offered her full access to my Model Railway Magazine collection - I got over it.  😛

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4 hours ago, sirrah said:

Thanks Copperhead, but I was more thinking about users that want to share their mods for free. I mean, there are lot's of mod creators out there (in fact, most of them) that just share their mods for free and I can imagine that it would only make them happy/proud if their mod was included in DCS core. Surely for those that freely want to share/submit their hard work, ED could perhaps make the submitting process more easy.

(the requirements listed in Nineline's post that you quoted, seem very much focused on flyable aircraft and not so much on, for instance, static objects)

The goal of these requirements is quality and realism. They can be easily adopted for static objects or vehicles.

Of course this only makes sense for a pack of objects/vehicles. The effort for single one is to high.


Edited by Copprhead
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I not aware of any other game that has incorporated some ones mod into the core of a game but then I don't play much other stuff so I am probably totally wrong, personally I think it would be can of worms. 


Edited by freehand
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Chinese Asset Pack. Its an example of an addon developed outside ED that is permanent

I'm only speaking from the position of common sense when I say that the reason you don't see ED incorporating things like statics is that if it is used in the base game and becomes a part of something that DLC is sold with it invites the concept that ED own the maintenance perpetually for those assets. The idea that in 2018 we have a static house and in 2021 after 3 years of being included in missions, no one has updated the textures to add the new FLIR tech and the items becomes unusuable, rendering 3 years of campaigns getting complaints, well thats something that bears thinking about, a static brick is a static brick for life, not just christmas 2018. For every asset included there is a cost attached. If assets never disappear and keep growing its one thing, but then to expect ED to hold the baby after kids grew up and made a nice house during their summer off, that's not happening.
So that's why basically, I think anyway.

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