Jump to content

Question: GBU-24/B Paveway III


twistking

Recommended Posts

First of all thanks to all of you who provided answers to my original question!

To add to the discussion about realism i want to add that - while i understand both positions - i see absolutely no sense in adding the bomb without any specific profile model. In Matt Wagner's video it seemed to be me as if this was simply a gbu 10 with added range and added nonfunctional options on the weapons page. My question came from that and i still think that adding it in this way adds nothing to the sim.

The good thing is that the weapons profile can't be changed from the cockpit, so ED could easily get away with adding only one or two different profiles (which would be chosen from the rearm pop-window appearing as different sub-types of the weapons). But i think it is essential to simulate at least one or two of the profiles as good as possible. Even with the limitation in target damage simulation, there should be a meaningful consideration as to pick a gbu 10 or gbu-24. If the gbu-24 stays merely a cosmetic repack of the other gbu i think it even takes away from realism (of course everyone is free not to use the weapon...)

Also because of the mentioned lack of sophisticated damage simulation for structures, strike missions in dcs are less interesting than they could be. Having weapons like the gbu-24 when modelled to a satisfactory level could allow more interesting and realistic strike missions.
So please @BIGNEWY convince the team to model the bomb flight profiles at least to a point where it is clearly distiguishable from other gbu from a mission planning and tactics perspective (added range alone does not cut it imho).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
1 hour ago, twistking said:

To add to the discussion about realism i want to add that - while i understand both positions - i see absolutely no sense in adding the bomb without any specific profile model. In Matt Wagner's video it seemed to be me as if this was simply a gbu 10 with added range and added nonfunctional options on the weapons page. My question came from that and i still think that adding it in this way adds nothing to the sim.

Even as is it provides a much greater range and a different warhead than the GBU-10 that allows hardened target penetration

The modes would provide minimal gameplay change at best, but we will still look into for a later update.

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you read through the flight profiles in the DTIC article, at a minimum the level flight profile, where it bumps up and then flies level until it acquires the laser spot, would make this an actual Low Level LGB. As of right now that is not a capability that any bomb has in DCS. So yeah it would add functionality and attack options to players.

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It'd really shine in combination with Block 40, which had a bunch of low level attack features, but that combination would help on Block 50, too.

Interestingly, that document also mentions a much newer version of the seeker that's almost an LJDAM, but that's probably too new for our Viper.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/29/2022 at 5:03 AM, AvroLanc said:

 

There are clearly lots of Paveway III details that ED simply doesn't have access to, which is a massive shame since they did once indicate that a new autopilot would be coming for PIII. Even Wag's video wasn't clear...is there a new flightpath model/autopilot implemented for PIII or is it just the same as Paveway II?? It's clear as mud at this point.

The Range Cue and Release angle settings do have some logic. The way I understand it, Paveway III is a very 'canned' weapon i.e. it's limited to fly in a very specific 'pre-planned' flightpath. It's very pre-planning intensive and the delivery has to be spot on in terms of Airspeed/Dive/Altitude to hit those pre-planned parameters. This is because the weapon has fixed non-flexible fuzing and when you use PIII you want the impact angle and fuzing etc to be planned spot on for the type (hardened!) of target you're going after. This is not a TOO CAS weapon. Therefore the Range Cue and Release angle setting's are there to pre-set a condition to release, they don't influence the actual bomb at all, they just make sure you're flying the pre-planned delivery.

Having said that, the gliding flightpath can be 'shaped' to achieve what you want by making a setting on the 'MODE' switch. On Paveway III, this is a physical switch on the bomb itself. Just like a PII's laser code. The 'MODE' setting knob has positions 1-8. I imagine these are the 8 gliding profiles or trajectory shaping modes. This detail is what ED lacks. But I say, let's make em' up.....

MODE 1. Standard medium/high alt level delivery that priorities range over terminal shape.

MODE 2. Medium alt drop that produces glide path the flattens in terminal stage for vertical targets (you want to hit side of a tower)

MODE 3. Medium alt drop that produces glide path that steepens terminal stage for horizontal targets (hit top of the target)

MODE 4 and 5. Low altitude drops that optimised for <5000ft deliveries for same vert or horiaontal as MODE 2 and 3.

MODE 6. Low altitude LOFT flight path to acheive max range in LOFT delivery for vertical impact angle 

MODE 7. Same as 6, but for different terminal stage 

etc etc Paveway III needs constant lasing in order to continually know it's relative position to the target. It also has a barometric altimeter, for rate of change of height.

 

Now, I've made the mode details up, but the 8 position MODE knob is real and I'm willing to bet I'm not too wrong...... I don't see why ED can't bow to a gameplay perspective here. Inactive and non-functinonal MFD buttons and labels should have no place in DCS in 2022. We're not in 1998 anymore and I expect more.

 

 

Sorry, but you're way off with your "8 modes".  It's a bit more nuanced than that.  

 

On 5/29/2022 at 9:51 AM, Frederf said:

I thought PWIII had 4 modes in the switch. Maybe a newer version has more? PWIII has a barometric sample port and autopilot of sorts. After launch there is a mandatory "bump up" maneuver (most if not all modes) then a decision window after launch where it determines if it's loft/level/dive category. Then it does some shaping stuff depending with possibly some break level alt flight then on laser acquire it G-biases and attempts a certain terminal angle (mode-dependent).

PWIII is a lot like PWII in the sense it's a hand grenade. You pull the pin and throw it with a laser spot to get. But PWIII is significantly smarter, about as smart as a Maverick in that it flies and shapes its trajectory. A big limitation of PWII was low-level delivery (from 500-1000') since the guidance is simplistic and the fins binary in motion. PWIII was known as the LLLGB or low-level LGB. It's normal for the bomb to climb above the launching height when released low.

This ^^

 

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 5/31/2022 at 7:10 AM, KlarSnow said:

You have already modelled that stuff correctly..... .This is what happens AFTER the bomb releases, and how it gets to the target. this is what everyone cares about. The HUD and symbology will not change other than the LAR if you change the mode. The HUD and jet does not take any of this into account.

 

This document is what "Mode 1" means on the MFD. There are other things that would happen if you could set Mode 2,3, or 4 but those are not openly available that I'm aware of. All happens in the bombs autopilot based on release angle and altitude. 

All setting Mode 1 on the jet means is that the Jet is calculating a generic LAR bucket for a GBU-24 that is going to fly based on how this document lays it out. It does not change and there are no other indications or setting in the HUD or on the MFD's. The bomb automatically decides what it is doing based on your release attitude and altitude as described here. Nothing will change in the cockpit. How the bomb behaves will change drastically as you can see if you read this document.

 

Agree.  That is all about what the bomb does post-release.  It's all about the release parameters you are in at the moment you Yeet it at the target.  From there the bomb does it's thing.  That's what needs to be modeled correctly to have value in the game.

 

System HW: i9-9900K @5ghz, MSI 11GB RTX-2080-Ti Trio, G-Skill 32GB RAM, Reverb HMD, Steam VR, TM Warthog Hotas Stick & Throttle, TM F/A-18 Stick grip add-on, TM TFRP pedals. SW: 2.5.6 OB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Notso said:

Sorry, but you're way off with your "8 modes".  It's a bit more nuanced than that.  

 

This ^^

 

Yeah ok, it was a guess and a punt based on what I presumed to know at the time (very little). If you mix all my ‘modes’ together and add in a few bits and nuance then it wasn’t a bad go. 

Thankfully the thread, and maybe my post, has stimulated some proper discussion that has led to a little more understanding that ED might go ahead and implement one day. So mission accomplished. 

You’re an SME are you not? Please feel free to fill in the gaps if you’re able. Thanks. 


Edited by AvroLanc
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

Hi, 

We said in the the thread, we'll look into for later, to say that it useless without modes is not correct, the extended range and penetrator warhead are big changes from the GBU-10.

thanks

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

We said in the the thread, we'll look into for later, to say that it useless without modes is not correct, the extended range and penetrator warhead are big changes from the GBU-10.

thanks

In game presently the GBU-24 while it has the model of a BLU-109 bomb body, does not have the weapons effects. It cannot destroy the same targets as a GBU-31v3/4. So as it stands right now in the game, the only thing a GBU-24 has over a GBU-10 is slightly greater range. 

There is really no reason to take a GBU-24 over a GBU-10 in the game presently.

In the video Wags did he mentioned the bump up that the GBU-24 performs. This is also not in the game, and is as can be read from the DTIC paper a key part of all of its flight profiles.

Finally the GBU-24 and Paveway 3 system was specifically created as a Low Level LGB, thats one of the key things it was designed to do that the Paveway 2's could not do. As it is right now, if you are at low altitude and you use a Paveway 3, it is exactly the same other than bang bang terminal guidance as a Paveway 2.


Edited by KlarSnow
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The DTIC paper that Klarsnow posted lays it all out very clearly in 3 pages (for mode 1), and even gives you a nice graphical depiction at the end of the document showing the logic of the bomb based on dive/level release and altitude above and below 15k. Good on ED to add another weapon, but do it right based on the open data. We're talking about a few simple parameters here for the autopilot. Just increasing the range of a GBU-10 and changing the bomb model/warhead isn't the way to represent such a capable weapon as PWIII.

Sent from my Pixel 3 XL using Tapatalk

  • Like 2

Dances, PhD

Jet Hobo

https://v65th.wordpress.com/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team

Hi, 

As mentioned, we are investigating for a later update. We are not saying that we will not do it.
We tested the upcoming GBU-24A/B for the Viper, and it can certainly destroy a hardened target like the command bunker with one hit. Further, we mentioned that the bump up will be coming for the update, it’s not currently available. Please wait for update and we look forward to your feedback then.

thanks

  • Like 1

smallCATPILOT.PNG.04bbece1b27ff1b2c193b174ec410fc0.PNG

Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

Windows 11, NVIDIA MSI RTX 3090, Intel® i9-10900K 3.70GHz, 5.30GHz Turbo, Corsair Hydro Series H150i Pro, 64GB DDR @3200, ASUS ROG Strix Z490-F Gaming, HP Reverb G2

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

As mentioned, we are investigating for a later update. We are not saying that we will not do it.
We tested the upcoming GBU-24A/B for the Viper, and it can certainly destroy a hardened target like the command bunker with one hit. Further, we mentioned that the bump up will be coming for the update, it’s not currently available. Please wait for update and we look forward to your feedback then.

thanks

The bump up isn’t even coming for the first iteration? Despite the fact that Wags mentioned (but tellingly, did not show) in his video? 

Do everyone a favour and hold the PIII until it’s ready. It’s represents absolutely no addition to gameplay as it stands. We already have the GBU-31v3/4 for penetration. We are past static menus and non functional Paveway II clones. 25 years already, been there, done that in numerous sims. 

Disappointed. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • ED Team
1 hour ago, AvroLanc said:

The bump up isn’t even coming for the first iteration? Despite the fact that Wags mentioned (but tellingly, did not show) in his video? 

Do everyone a favour and hold the PIII until it’s ready. It’s represents absolutely no addition to gameplay as it stands. We already have the GBU-31v3/4 for penetration. We are past static menus and non functional Paveway II clones. 25 years already, been there, done that in numerous sims. 

Disappointed. 

Many weapons and systems come into public hands before being completed, there is no point holding it even if you yourself feels it is of no added benefit. If you feel that way, don't use it till it is at a level you would like to see it. This is Early Access after all. 

I think that is where we stand on this issue, so for now, until more is done, I think this discussion is done.

Thanks for all your input, believe it or not it was helpful.

  • Like 2
  • Thanks 2

64Sig.png
Forum RulesMy YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug**

1146563203_makefg(6).png.82dab0a01be3a361522f3fff75916ba4.png  80141746_makefg(1).png.6fa028f2fe35222644e87c786da1fabb.png  28661714_makefg(2).png.b3816386a8f83b0cceab6cb43ae2477e.png  389390805_makefg(3).png.bca83a238dd2aaf235ea3ce2873b55bc.png  216757889_makefg(4).png.35cb826069cdae5c1a164a94deaff377.png  1359338181_makefg(5).png.e6135dea01fa097e5d841ee5fb3c2dc5.png

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...