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FCR Detection v Lock Range - Wait for Radar White Paper


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I was again testing radar, amraam and some evading maneuvers (but thats not important here), I`m more concerned about my radar loosing track while I already got it. Check out my track. Interesting stuff, never seen that befre

f16_dogfight_jf17_5_no_Contact.trk Tacview-20220504-215633-DCS-bvr_vs_jf-17.zip.acmi


Edited by skywalker22
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I tested against Su-27, Mig-29, Mirage 2000, F-15, F-16, against all behavior of the radar is just fine. There is no delay between when contact appears on FRC and when you can lock it up (maybe 1 second, but that perfectly normal).

Seems that only the JF-17 seems to cause problems. 

Im sorry for being like a pain in the arse, but would like to come to the bottom of this issue we are facing. And the truth is, 90% of all my practice has been flown against Jeff, maybe thats why all these issues have been appearing. So ED, check the JF-17 plane, maybe is there an issue, and not the radar and amraams on F-16. My few cents.


Edited by skywalker22
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18 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Can you test with the Mig-21 as well, as it has the same RCS?

sure, will do later on today. will test even more planes.

But as it looks atm, the only problem is JF-17. And of course amraaam needs some updating (I hope for hprf and mprf parameters, as many others 🙂 ).

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  • skywalker22 changed the title to AN/APG-68(V)5 misteriously loosing track to JF-17
4 minutes ago, Gypsy 1-1 said:

Yes because the JF17 has a low RCS.

2 things we are having here:

1. in RWS and TWS the 20second delay between when contact appears on FCR and when you can lock it.

2. regarding this thread`s title, I already had a contact on FCR, and climbing a bit (cca 10deg) and lost it. As you can see on track file. Why? Thats the question here, I`m asking for. And JF-17 was not doing any strange maneuvers or something, so I shouldn`t have lost the track or lock, but at least not the contact on FCR.

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  • ED Team

JF-17 Does have a smaller RCS, also it did start to notch after firing the first missile. I suspect what you are seeing here is the difference in detection and lock ranges, we have asked the team to take a look, but we need evidence it should be different. 

thanks

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@BIGNEWYIn DCS RCS is a fixed (constant) number, right?  So it does not change depening on the angle of observation, and also it does not change regarding playload, right?

Does this still apply?

image.png

Have you guys maybe consider of "updating" RCS to be more dynamic? So it can vary based on angle of observation and payload?

Because there is a significant increase of RCS when flying with tank(s) and bombs. And it changes everytihng a lot.

I can start a new thread, but a short answer will do, will not ask any longer here.


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  • ED Team

RCS value are fixed, but you did see the JF-17 start to notch in the track correct? Unless its playing back different for me after it fires the first missile.

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2 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

RCS value are fixed, but you did see the JF-17 start to notch in the track correct? Unless its playing back different for me after it fires the first missile.

Sure I did. Will now test how FCR reacts when Jeff is going straight towards me, without turining towards notch.

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If JF-17 goes straight towards me, the radar can pick it up as same 38nm distance, and I can lock it at 32nm, which it time means 13 seconds. If thats ok or not, I don`t know. But it still strange why it takes so much time between pick-up and lock-up.

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  • ED Team
9 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

@BIGNEWY one more thing, does that RCS table I pasted above still applies?

 

I don't have time to check them all, but the JF-17 should be 3 similar to Mig-21 RCS. 

I've spoken to the team and the lock ranges your mention are about correct for the JF-17 headon. 

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2 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

I don't have time to check them all, but the JF-17 should be 3 similar to Mig-21 RCS. 

I've spoken to the team and the lock ranges your mention are about correct for the JF-17 headon. 

Ok. But is it possible to know why there is this difference between pick-up and lock-up? I would think that you are able to lock it as soon as it appears on FCR. Or that means that the Radar apg-68v5 is too good, is it over performing?

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  • ED Team
Just now, skywalker22 said:

Ok. But is it possible to know why there is this difference between pick-up and lock-up? I would think that you are able to lock it as soon as it appears on FCR. Or that means that the Radar apg-68v5 is too good, is it over performing?

We have no information to support this. Detection and lock ranges differ. 
If you have public information to support otherwise please PM me. 

thanks

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Am 6.5.2022 um 16:13 schrieb BIGNEWY:

We have no information to support this. Detection and lock ranges differ. 
If you have public information to support otherwise please PM me. 

thanks

Hey @BIGNEWY, one question: was there any change to the radar in the F16 in the last patch? 

There was no note of this in the patchnotes and as so often noticable changing in the radar behavior ist labeled as "correct as it is". So no bug but no change in the beta, so what is it?

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/7/2022 at 11:42 AM, jojojung said:

Hey @BIGNEWY, one question: was there any change to the radar in the F16 in the last patch? 

There was no note of this in the patchnotes and as so often noticable changing in the radar behavior ist labeled as "correct as it is". So no bug but no change in the beta, so what is it?

That’s what I want to know too.  Nobody has said anything about any changes to the fcr in the last patch or 2 but clearly somethings quite different. 

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Since the end of April, I am quite sure there is a new bug in the F16 radar.

Before the update, we can use TMS up to lock on air target once we have radar contact (white brick dispalyed on MFD). but we can not now. 

Now when we have the white brick displayed on MFD, we can not lock it by puting TDC on it and push TMS up in RWS mode, i don't know the reason of this but it resulted in no respond in pushing TMS up(even by multiple times). this will happen even when we have new radar contact within 10-20 n miles so it is not normal !  anyone plays F16 in a normal BVR fight can easily experience this now ! In the case of TWS mode, we can have a track in quite resonable range, but if we want to TMS right to lock it, there are identical problems either.(TMS right not working in the first place even within about 10 -20 n miles)

This is a really big issue as the F16 radar can be considered totally crippled now ! it's not the F16 I paid for anymore. Could ED pleas have a look into it please?

 

*The TRK file can well demonstrate it is 169m so i cannot upload it. Just play a standard BVR fight and you will see!

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  • ED Team

If it is an issue you can reproduce in a short track replay please attach it. 

thanks

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  • ED Team

I don't like to assume which is why I ask for the track replays so we can take a look at users concerns. 

thanks

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1小时前,BIGNEWY说:

I don't like to assume which is why I ask for the track replays so we can take a look at users concerns. 

thanks

Hi,

 

I have created a single player mission and play in it just to demomstrate. as you can see I have tried TMS up in Rws mode and TMS right in TWS mode but it does not working in this case.

*please also be noticed that this is just an imprecise  situation that just to demonstrate what we  have encountered with the F16 radar. the real online server playing situations are much more complex and can not be simulated. I have even experienced fail to lock on a radar contact at about 15-20 n miles at least 3 times for now playing online. Both experienced in TWS and RWS mode(TWS was tracking in such short range as two blue vertical lines appeared after TMS up, but still can not lock on it by TMS right after i pressed it multiple times)

*I can assure it's not my hardware's malfuntion !

F16 Radar Bug.trk

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  • ED Team
1 minute ago, JarrodR5 said:

Hi,

 

I have created a single player mission and play in it just to demomstrate. as you can see I have tried TMS up in Rws mode and TMS right in TWS mode but it does not working in this case.

*please also be noticed that this is just an imprecise  situation that just to demonstrate what we  have encountered with the F16 radar. the real online server playing situations are much more complex and can not be simulated. I have even experienced fail to lock on a radar contact at about 15-20 n miles at least 3 times for now playing online. Both experienced in TWS and RWS mode(TWS was tracking in such short range as two blue vertical lines appeared after TMS up, but still can not lock on it by TMS right after i pressed it multiple times)

*I can assure it's not my hardware's malfuntion !

F16 Radar Bug.trk 299.84 kB · 0 downloads

Thanks we will take a look and try to reproduce. 

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Forum rules - DCS Crashing? Try this first - Cleanup and Repair - Discord BIGNEWY#8703 - Youtube - Patch Status

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