some Pedal Problems

[JG11Preusse]

Hello all,

i will try to find help here, because i tried a lot (Youtube, etc) and it will not work like i thought it has to work.

I was a Helicopter Pilot at German Aviation (BO-105 PAH) 1986 till 1994.

First Module i bought from DCS was the KA-50 .... a stand alone Version, no DCS World needed, i guess there also was no DCS World availible. And i used Lock On fixed Wing Aircraft.

For this i new Simulator option i changed from TM Afterburner to the Saitek X52 System (non pro).

Flying was no problem and it worked very well, even Pedals using with the stick the KA-50 worked perfect.

Some weeks ago, i bought the A-10, P-51 and the AH-64 Module ...... Fixed Wing flying was no problem, but handling my Heli was a big mess, especially due to the Peadals behavior.

So i thought to myself to change my very old Contollers  after all these years with the X52 Hotas System.

I bought TM Warthog HOTAS (Stick and Thrust Module in a Box).

Didnt knew that i now will have no Rudder/Pedal controll, i additionaly bought TM TFRP Pedals.

Flying the Heli  itself is no problem, but handling the pedals is a mess at the moment. It reacts much to heavy and even when i change the axis curves for it, i am not able to hold the Heli f.e. 30 ft above ground at the same spot. I know i can, was my Job, but at the moment i am a bit frustrated.

Maybe someone will have a Solution, because  normally you can not forget how to fly a Heli, like you can noct forget to drive a bicycle.

 

Thx in advance for your help

Andi

 

 

 

 

 

[silverdevil]

guten tag! i bought the set (stick, throttle, pedals) many years ago. i had a learning curve with the pedals and did not use them for many years. i used the paddles on the throttle for zooming. still do. for rudder i used the twist on the stick. the twist sensor was prone to problems. i got a new warthog stick and throttle. i am only using the stick at the moment. and have an extension on the stick (105 mm). i have learned the pedals again and fixed wing is no problem. flying the apache, my first helo, is a huge mess. i cannot figure out how to stop spinning around. trimming is a foreign word to me and i just cannot come to grips with how to fly. i am occasionally able to fly around in a mile or so radius but never ends well. it makes me feel better that someone who knows a helo cannot fly the dcs apache. i am looking forward to someone with some aid answering your post. i will monitor to learn too. tschüss!

[fapador]

34 minutes ago, JG11Preusse said:

I was a Helicopter Pilot at German Aviation (BO-105 PAH) 1986 till 1994.

I have a PPL. Also I used to fly Piper Warriors and Cessnas for many years. I have stick time in many other airframes though, even some in airliners, for example a320 and many hours in professional flight sims e.g CAE.

When it comes especially to rotary wing, I have high rank army friends that tested DCS helicopter modules and had at best mixed feelings about their depicted FM.

Its not you that is the problem, nor the stick. It is the general DCS FM in most modules that I personally find not very realistically tuned. Don't expect much, In the end its just a 50dollar sim good for learning procedures and button layouts, Not very good for flight training, Infact, its even possible to pick up some bad habits from hassling too much with it. Accept it and use it wisely for what it is actually good for. 

Kind regards from Greece.

[Nevyn]

The apache is not much fun atm, even though I have no real problem flying it with same pedals you have, I do not enjoy it at all, too temperamental. One thing to keep in mind with the rudder pedals, they get very sensitive when you restart or shutdown your machine, get into the habit of moving them through their range of movement before each flight.

 

You could try these curves and see if they help, it did for me.

null

 

[Floyd1212]

I would suggest removing the curve on the pedals, and possibly bring the Y-saturation down a bit instead. 

The problem with having a curve on the pedals as that you want the most accuracy when you are trying to hold a hover, and your pedals are not going to be centered when in a hover.  This is my pedal position when holding an OGE (200 ft) hover.  Of course this will change depending on climate conditions and weight, etc.

You don't want to be on the "bump" of your custom curve when in the hover, which may lead to unpredictable results.

[sobe]

I gave up on the TM rudder pedals and bit the bullet and bought the crosswinds.  Now I can fly the Apache much better.  

[Floyd1212]

1 hour ago, silverdevil said:

i cannot figure out how to stop spinning around

Are you literally unable to keep from spinning around in circles?  Or do you mean it is just difficult to control it, but you are able to input enough pedal to either spin left or right if desired?

[silverdevil]

1 minute ago, Floyd1212 said:

Are you literally unable to keep from spinning around in circles?  Or do you mean it is just difficult to control it, but you are able to input enough pedal to either spin left or right if desired?

literally cannot keep it from spinning. it seems i have to keep the rudder either fully left or right (opposite of spin) to keep it steady. any release and weeeee a really fast merry-go-round. i am considering new pedals too. also thinking about employing another old joystick as collective. 

[Floyd1212]

Yeah, that sounds like a problem with your axis setup, or maybe a double-bind with some other controller.

If you are using a split-throttle for collective, for example, make sure the other half of the throttle isn't bound to be pedals so that you are changing pedal position when you are making changes to the collective.

[tweet]

Searching this forum topic you'll find similar questions and similar experiences from almost everyone. First, remember that the control system is a work in progress but there are, IMO, some control design flaws in how DCS models the trimmer. That too is a common opinion. I stopped flying KA50 2 because of the wonky trimmer. It is alive and well on the Apache. To be honest I haven't a clue how to improve on the design. The differences between the flight controls available for a desktop sim and in the real world are likely too great to find a satisfactory or easy to train compromise. An old FFB stick seems to be the closest fix but they are hard to get and sacrifice too much other functionality to be a viable consideration to me. 

Those are the issues as I see them. Fortunately, the workarounds, lots of practice and training, plus the continued work on the FCS should produce a product most of us will learn to fly well enough. My breakthrough in learning to fly the AH-64 was a recommendation for what I thought was an extreme axis tune. I've been using one of the first Warthogs available in the US and, while in excellent shape for its age, isn't the best choice for a helo. I have the new F-16EX stick and throttle from Winwing and CH Pro pedals (to replace ones at least 15 years old) that, when I get them setup, I think will improve my ability fly the AH-64 and other helos. The axis tune  that I applied was 0 deadzone, 35 curvature, and 90 Y Saturation. That alone instantly improved everything. It is a counterintuitive solution require by a FCS that is very, very sensitive to pedal pressures. I now use a 38 curvature which is fine but the trimmer still sucks. I hope the much softer center and more accurate stick position sensing offered by the new stick will overcome some of the trimmer issues. We'll see.

A few other recommendations and some insight helped too. The AH-64 isn't a nimble race car. It's a truck that can be adequately maneuverable but is best flown deliberately and avoiding situations where you have to do things very quickly. If you expect to buzz around like a bee you'll be disappointed, get a Gazelle. Lots of practice on hovering, transitions to a hover, and landing are essential. I love a trimmed up airplane. I hate holding control pressures but attempting to keep this thing trimmed is a path to Flustercluck City. Following a recommendation to not trim very often and to carefully pick when to trim have helped a lot. I try to minimizes collective movements and to only trim one axis at a time if possible. I am much more likely to hold control pressures for transient maneuvers like maneuvering and temporary altitude and airspeed changes. I had pretty good trimming techniques until SCAS (a FCS and stability augmentation system) changes were made the update from last month. I was back to occasional near losses of control. I hope the most recent update has added improvements to SCAS and that the Attitude and Hover Modes are more refined. A combination of our personal control setup refinements, further updates to the SCAS and Hold Modes, and lots of practice are the key I think. Personally, I think it's worth the work and the challenge.

Edited May 30, 2022 by tweet

[pii]

2 hours ago, JG11Preusse said:

 

Flying the Heli  itself is no problem, but handling the pedals is a mess at the moment. It reacts much to heavy and even when i change the axis curves for it, i am not able to hold the Heli f.e. 30 ft above ground at the same spot. I know i can, was my Job, but at the moment i am a bit frustrated.

Maybe someone will have a Solution, because  normally you can not forget how to fly a Heli, like you can noct forget to drive a bicycle.

 

Thx in advance for your help

Andi

 

 

 

 

 

I have those same pedals and the same problem. I can only do very very slight movement,you could say just pressure its so little, but then all of a sudden it will become heavy with the imputs and I go swinging back and forth as I try to regain control.

I think its the pedals and I'm personlly looking for a new pair.

[silverdevil]

1 hour ago, Floyd1212 said:

Yeah, that sounds like a problem with your axis setup, or maybe a double-bind with some other controller.

If you are using a split-throttle for collective, for example, make sure the other half of the throttle isn't bound to be pedals so that you are changing pedal position when you are making changes to the collective.

hello. single throttle.

 

1 hour ago, tweet said:

My breakthrough in learning to fly the AH-64 was a recommendation for what I thought was an extreme axis tune. I've been using one of the first Warthogs available in the US and, while in excellent shape for its age, isn't the best choice for a helo. I have the new F-16EX stick and throttle from Winwing and CH Pro pedals (to replace ones at least 15 years old) that, when I get them setup, I think will improve my ability fly the AH-64 and other helos. The axis tune  that I applied was 0 deadzone, 35 curvature, and 90 Y Saturation. That alone instantly improved everything. It is a counterintuitive solution require by a FCS that is very, very sensitive to pedal pressures. I now use a 38 curvature which is fine but the trimmer still sucks. I hope the much softer center and more accurate stick position sensing offered by the new stick will overcome some of the trimmer issues. We'll see.

interesting curves suggestion. i will try that.

48 minutes ago, pii said:

I think its the pedals and I'm personlly looking for a new pair.

i just purchased crosswinds 

Quote

• MFG Crosswind V3 graphite - 1x MFG Crosswind V3 graphite - base - 1x Footrests Kit - model : Me109 graphite 
• Hydraulic Damper universal kit for V1-3 pedals
• Soft Spring for MFG Crosswind

i am sure these are better pedals. but i think it will only matter if i can get the pedals settings correct.    

[pii]

1 minute ago, silverdevil said:

hello. single throttle.

 

interesting curves suggestion. i will try that.

i just purchased crosswinds 

i am sure these are better pedals. but i think it will only matter if i can get the pedals settings correct.    

nope it will still matter a lot. There are no specific setting for all controllers you have to try them out and adjust the curves as necessary for each one to suit you. 

[Leg2ion]

I fly with custom curves - shown at this link - I did feel them to help. Initially I found that the slightest yaw input would give me a spin, so after some guidance from elsewhere in the forum flattened the yaw/pitch/roll out around the centre point.

Hope that helps - though really think a lot depends on your setup/feel and what works for you...

 

 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Leg2ion

[Synoopy]

I could not land or stay in a hover when my curves were at 35 - it was very unstable and not enjoyable to fly. Through trial and error - I finally am able to hover and land where i want without much issue - I have a TM warthog and CH-pedals -- I didn't like messing with the sat Y and X and left them alone - I just changed all my curves to 18 with a 3 dead zone and I am in bliss.  I also changed my cyclic trimmer in special - to instatrim ffb friendly and my pedals to without springs.   I would eventually like to put a trim on my pedals but for now I am flying like a pro -love the Apache.

[spikenet]

12 hours ago, tweet said:

The axis tune  that I applied was 0 deadzone, 35 curvature, and 90 Y Saturation.

I run similar setup on my VKB T-Rudders and feel its about as good as it gets right now. It can still get what appears over sensitive/wacky sometimes but I assume that is the SCAS doing its thing?

[TZeer]

Clear out all axis settings on your setup.

And then assign each axis to its appropriate input.

 

I don't think I have ever installed a module where one or two axises have not had two different inputs assigned to it.

Specially true on rudders/pedals. As DCS likes to auto assign some rudder/pedal commands to analog inputs located on the throttle or stick.

 

[Scaley]

On 5/30/2022 at 2:43 PM, JG11Preusse said:

Hello all,

i will try to find help here, because i tried a lot (Youtube, etc) and it will not work like i thought it has to work.

I was a Helicopter Pilot at German Aviation (BO-105 PAH) 1986 till 1994.

First Module i bought from DCS was the KA-50 .... a stand alone Version, no DCS World needed, i guess there also was no DCS World availible. And i used Lock On fixed Wing Aircraft.

For this i new Simulator option i changed from TM Afterburner to the Saitek X52 System (non pro).

Flying was no problem and it worked very well, even Pedals using with the stick the KA-50 worked perfect.

Some weeks ago, i bought the A-10, P-51 and the AH-64 Module ...... Fixed Wing flying was no problem, but handling my Heli was a big mess, especially due to the Peadals behavior.

So i thought to myself to change my very old Contollers  after all these years with the X52 Hotas System.

I bought TM Warthog HOTAS (Stick and Thrust Module in a Box).

Didnt knew that i now will have no Rudder/Pedal controll, i additionaly bought TM TFRP Pedals.

Flying the Heli  itself is no problem, but handling the pedals is a mess at the moment. It reacts much to heavy and even when i change the axis curves for it, i am not able to hold the Heli f.e. 30 ft above ground at the same spot. I know i can, was my Job, but at the moment i am a bit frustrated.

Maybe someone will have a Solution, because  normally you can not forget how to fly a Heli, like you can noct forget to drive a bicycle.

 

Thx in advance for your help

Andi

 

 

 

 

 

The Apache yaw characteristics right now are very much a work in progress. The stability augmentation is doing some funny things that are probably amplifying the pedal inputs. The best technique to learn the characteristics right now is to set the Y saturation of the pedal axis down to 70% or maybe even lower. Obviously you will loose some range of travel, but with the force-trim system as implemented in DCS that doesn't really matter. Also make sure (as others have mentioned) that you don't accidentally have another control device bound to the pedals, and that you are using an appropriate force-trim mode on the settings. 

[richebel]

TM TFRP Pedals are too choppy.  You can't smoothly move the pedals.  I've just ordered the TPR pedals.  I'm hoping that they will be more precise.

[Kharrn]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb richebel:

TM TFRP Pedals are too choppy.  You can't smoothly move the pedals.  I've just ordered the TPR pedals.  I'm hoping that they will be more precise.

i can move them smoothly, even with spring attached. No hardware changes done so far, only in the software (T.RJ12 USB_TPR_Calibration).

People tend to forget that TM has software for products. In older hardware software (not drivers) will not automatically install....

But well, everybody can have an opinion i guess

[JG11Preusse]

Hi all,

just wanted to let you know, that my Apache now behaves much more better after the latest patch.

I installed AH-64 again yesterday and tried it out and was wondering that i now can hove as it should be.

One TIPP :

I use TFRP Pedals and i sprayed a bit silicon spray at the metal pipes (left and right) and after that much more smooth steering with pedals is the result.

[pii]

On 5/30/2022 at 9:43 AM, JG11Preusse said:

Hello all,

i will try to find help here, because i tried a lot (Youtube, etc) and it will not work like i thought it has to work.

I was a Helicopter Pilot at German Aviation (BO-105 PAH) 1986 till 1994.

First Module i bought from DCS was the KA-50 .... a stand alone Version, no DCS World needed, i guess there also was no DCS World availible. And i used Lock On fixed Wing Aircraft.

For this i new Simulator option i changed from TM Afterburner to the Saitek X52 System (non pro).

Flying was no problem and it worked very well, even Pedals using with the stick the KA-50 worked perfect.

Some weeks ago, i bought the A-10, P-51 and the AH-64 Module ...... Fixed Wing flying was no problem, but handling my Heli was a big mess, especially due to the Peadals behavior.

So i thought to myself to change my very old Contollers  after all these years with the X52 Hotas System.

I bought TM Warthog HOTAS (Stick and Thrust Module in a Box).

Didnt knew that i now will have no Rudder/Pedal controll, i additionaly bought TM TFRP Pedals.

Flying the Heli  itself is no problem, but handling the pedals is a mess at the moment. It reacts much to heavy and even when i change the axis curves for it, i am not able to hold the Heli f.e. 30 ft above ground at the same spot. I know i can, was my Job, but at the moment i am a bit frustrated.

Maybe someone will have a Solution, because  normally you can not forget how to fly a Heli, like you can noct forget to drive a bicycle.

 

Thx in advance for your help

Andi

 

 

 

 

 

Turn your pedels over and you will see a little door (looks like a 9v battery opening) , open it and you will see a spring that is used to center the pedels REMOVE IT! It will make a TON of difference for the ah64d. Also the Warthog is hard for landings due to its strong spring, remove it or get a "green" spring which is far less stiff. Both of these will really really make a difference. ORRR do as I did and buy a virpil , but it looks like you already invested a lot. Trust me on this I had both your pedels and the wart hog and struggled for months trying to hover and land, now its easy (kind of) If you do this don't forget to change the term settings.

Happy flying

[MAXsenna]

57 minutes ago, pii said:

Turn your pedels over and you will see a little door (looks like a 9v battery opening) , open it and you will see a spring that is used to center the pedels REMOVE IT! It will make a TON of difference for the ah64d. Also the Warthog is hard for landings due to its strong spring, remove it or get a "green" spring which is far less stiff. Both of these will really really make a difference. ORRR do as I did and buy a virpil , but it looks like you already invested a lot. Trust me on this I had both your pedels and the wart hog and struggled for months trying to hover and land, now its easy (kind of) If you do this don't forget to change the term settings.

Happy flying

Haha! Got you really enthusiastic about this "mod", did I?

Another tip. I read somewhere that if the spring ever breaks, the thick part of a rubber is a perfect replacement.

Anyway, did you get your upgrade yet? Obviously you didn't get the new base? Was hoping you could review it!

Cheers! 

[pii]

4 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Haha! Got you really enthusiastic about this "mod", did I?

Another tip. I read somewhere that if the spring ever breaks, the thick part of a rubber is a perfect replacement.

Anyway, did you get your upgrade yet? Obviously you didn't get the new base? Was hoping you could review it!

Cheers! 

Just trying to help.

And yes I did get it, only took like 5 days. I have been trying all the CAM and springs combinations. Only draw back was I lost all my settings in the controls due to firmware upgrade and my backup didn't work (BUMMER) so been busy redoing at least the 64's settings . No time for reviews but it works extremly well is smooth as silk and precise as can be. I can recommend it to anyone looking for a new stick base. 

Losing setting of 10+ years for all my DCS aircraft is really heartbreaking  

[MAXsenna]

4 minutes ago, pii said:

Just trying to help.

And yes I did get it, only took like 5 days. I have been trying all the CAM and springs combinations. Only draw back was I lost all my settings in the controls due to firmware upgrade and my backup didn't work (BUMMER) so been busy redoing at least the 64's settings . No time for reviews but it works extremly well is smooth as silk and precise as can be. I can recommend it to anyone looking for a new stick base. 

Losing setting of 10+ years for all my DCS aircraft is really heartbreaking  

Nah! You'll push through and have fun!  

I don't bother with backups and such. I map everything "realistic" as possible. So whenever I get new toys or change hardware, it takes me fivish minutes anyway. It's all in my head. 

I meant the new base announced yesterday, did you get that?????