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Combat flaps switch


Hummingbird

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Couple of questions regarding the combat flaps switch:

1) Is it off as standard ? (RedKite's video seems to indicate so)

2) If answer to question #1 is yes, why is that? Reason for asking being that if the flaps/slats automatically deploy/retract within their speed/AoA limits anyway, then why turn it off? 

3) Is it because this feature is only really meant to be used at rather low speeds for min radius, but not max STR? (I ask this as I noticed the LE slats are still automatically deploying when the cmbt flaps switch is off, just not the TE flaps, which indicates the switch is primarily for max lift but lower L/D)

In short I'm trying to understand the logic behind the system, so as to prepare myself for how to properly use it.


Edited by Hummingbird
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The combat flaps are manually controlled.  The slats are automatic but if combat flaps are selected it allows the pilot to control them via the lever if inside the combat flaps envelope.  This is also only an option when the flap handle is up.  So it makes sense to have combat flaps disarmed during the take-off roll.  

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On 6/2/2022 at 7:00 PM, turkeydriver said:

The combat flaps are manually controlled.  The slats are automatic but if combat flaps are selected it allows the pilot to control them via the lever if inside the combat flaps envelope.  This is also only an option when the flap handle is up.  So it makes sense to have combat flaps disarmed during the take-off roll.  

 

Ah I see. So just to get this straight, what you're saying is that with the combat flaps switch engaged, the pilot can:

1) Manually apply TE flaps during maneuvers within automatically set limits

2) Manually apply extra slat extension during maneuvers over what the aircraft otherwise does automatically

 

Yes?

 

and thank you very much for the answer!


Edited by Hummingbird
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1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

The outboard slats and the inboard droops are always auto and are dependant on AoA (and Mach?)

The Maneuvering Flaps (TE) should be a function of IAS/ Mach and AoA, when auto is selected.

 

IIRC the limit speed for the combat flaps is 330KIAS.

 

As pr. the vids it seems the slats extend further when the combat flaps switch is engaged, is that not the case? 

Also as for the TE maneuvering flaps, you're saying they work when auto is selected or when combat flaps switch is engaged? I'm abit confused about this now, as I thought they were always automatically limited, but would only actually extend if the "cmbt flaps switch" was engaged.


Edited by Hummingbird
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Depends on who you're asking 🤪

 

After digging through my (incomplete*) manual:

Hi Lift switch in NORMAL gives you Auto Slats and you'll contol the TE devices via the flap-lever.

Hi Lift switch in NORMAL plus COMBAT FLAPS lever out gives you combat flaps on top when within the save envelope.

There are two limits given for the Combat Flaps: The first limit is 300 KIAS and M0.75 / the second limit is 335KIAS and Mach 0.85. Both limits are activated through different system paths and they act as a redundancy - the retraction is initiated upon reaching the lower limit. Normally, the CF should stay in when outside those boundaries, but the manual advises to only use the function when inside or getting inside the envelope and it advises against using a "preselect". It also advises to disengage the CF when going above M0.9 and to deselect the Hi Lift devices altogether (including slats) when accelerating beyond M0.9 with the intent to go supersonic (Hi Lift device selector switch "OFF").

 

FWIW: Slat limits are 440KIAS and M 0.98 (low limit) / 470 KIAS and M 1.1 (high limit).

The LIM light comes on by exceeding the second (high) limit of both the flaps and slats.

 

If you have busted the CF or Slat imit, you'll have to

- CF limit busted: cycle the CF lever to RETRACT the to EXTEND

- Slat limit busted: cycle the Hi Lift control switch to OFF, then NORMAL

5 hours ago, Hummingbird said:

Ah I see. So just to get this straight, what you're saying is that with the combat flaps switch engaged, the pilot can:

1) Manually apply TE flaps during maneuvers within automatically set limits

2) Manually apply extra slat extension during maneuvers over what the aircraft otherwise does automatically

Hi Lift Device selector switch:

- NORMAL gives you auto slats (always) and COMBAT FLAPS (if lever on the throttle is used to activate them)

- OFF gives you no automatic hi lift device actuation (no auto slats and no combat flaps)

- EMERG RETR retracts all hi lift devices and no flaps or slats are available

Flaps and Slats can be actuated by Flap Lever (UP / Half Flaps and full Slats / Full Flaps and full Slats) in either NORMAL or OFF - the flap-lever overrides the autoslat and combat flap schedule.

It's kind of similar (but different) to the F-5's hi lift device controls. With the flap-lever and the thumb-switch on the throttle.

____

* I'm missing the info on slat activation function (AoA over airspeed/ Mach) and Combat Flap travel / schedule over AoA, airspeed and Mach.

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Thanks for the detailed information Brems, that's what I was looking for 👍

As I understand it, the use of the flaps in this case is going to be quite limited, i.e. primarily if you're forced slow and need as tight a radius as possible. So a useful, but highly situational tool in the box. 

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  • 1 month later...

Hey Guys,

I have a question about the combat flaps mapping. There are two bindings - "combat flap button" and "combat flap lever". What do they do? What is the difference?

I couldn't figure out by trial and error.

Thanks

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Combat flaps button is on the throttle and can be used for combat as the name says, I believe it's not exactly flaps but mostly leading edge slats and so, but it's there for you to use it.

The lever on the other hand I think it's just the flaps control next to throttle but in horizontal left panel and it controls the three position flaps for take off/landing, I believe but perhaps I'm mixing up now those pesky names 🤣 . Bit confusing names mixed from those French fellas, yeah.

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6 hours ago, Hiob said:

Hey Guys,

I have a question about the combat flaps mapping. There are two bindings - "combat flap button" and "combat flap lever". What do they do? What is the difference?

I couldn't figure out by trial and error.

Thanks

The combat flaps button activates the combat flaps and the combat flap lever deactivates them.

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OK the HANDLE- offers fixed flap positions of UP/intermediate/Full- useful during takeoff and landing only.

The HLD SWITCH:  Enables the use of auto slats and combat flaps(when in the combat flaps speed window)

On the THROTTLE, you have the Combat Flaps button and lever

The combat flaps BUTTON:  "Arms" combat flaps

The combat Flaps LEVER:  EDIT VERIFYING FUNCTION

The combat flaps can be used at higher speeds than the manual settings on the flap handle.   Flaps are always 100% manually set, slats are controlled by the aircraft when the HLD switch is on.  

I don't know how smoothly the flaps move with the combat flaps level, but they will make a big difference during ACM.

 


Edited by turkeydriver
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2 hours ago, turkeydriver said:

 

The combat Flaps LEVER:  Allows the pilot to set flaps at a degree between UP at 26 degrees down(the intermediate setting)- kind of like maneuvering flaps on the F-14.

 

Thanks for the explanation guys, but this is the part where I struggle to understand. Since the flap lever is not an axis but a button (from the controls setup pov), how do I manipulate the flaps in such a way? Is press and hold until the desired extension is reached?

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1 hour ago, Hiob said:

 

Thanks for the explanation guys, but this is the part where I struggle to understand. Since the flap lever is not an axis but a button (from the controls setup pov), how do I manipulate the flaps in such a way? Is press and hold until the desired extension is reached?

Apologies.  I see what you mean.  The game seems to give you a light when you arm the combat flaps and then when you press the lever- the flaps and slats seem to deploy while in a turn with alpha on the jet.  This doesnt make sense to me and the flaps seem to deply straight to 26 degrees.   weird.

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8 hours ago, Hiob said:

 

Thanks for the explanation guys, but this is the part where I struggle to understand. Since the flap lever is not an axis but a button (from the controls setup pov), how do I manipulate the flaps in such a way? Is press and hold until the desired extension is reached?

 

6 hours ago, turkeydriver said:

Apologies.  I see what you mean.  The game seems to give you a light when you arm the combat flaps and then when you press the lever- the flaps and slats seem to deploy while in a turn with alpha on the jet.  This doesnt make sense to me and the flaps seem to deply straight to 26 degrees.   weird.

I played with this for 15 minutes and the operation is pretty straightforward.

The Combat Flaps BUTTON is what arms the combat flaps and allows them to auto-deploy within the speed restrictions.  The amber light will also go solid.  Beyond the speed restrictions, the combat flaps auto-retract and the amber light flashes.

The Combat Flaps LEVER simply disarms the combat flaps, preventing them from auto-deploying at all.

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The way it works in the Sim imo

The Button (V) activates Combat Flaps

The Lever (Lctl V) deactivates the combat flaps.

The Real Aircraft Manual basically states:

The Button allows the lever to be selected to activate combat Flap (i.e. the button effectively unlocks the lever)

Then activate combat flaps with the lever.

To Deselect Combat flaps the lever is selected off.

So imo what we see in the Sim is at variance with the real world. (Though functional in the sim).

 


Edited by IvanK
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Ok, starts, to make sense. (I hope), so the combat flap button is kind of a „master arm“ for the flaps and the lever is a toggle switch that can override the auto mode?

I will have to try again, to fully understand. It‘s not intuitive for me…. 😬

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Yeah, I just did a couple of test flights. From what I figured, the combat flap lever does nothing except nullification of the combat flaps switch. Basically you toggle them on and off with two buttons instead of one toggle switch. When on and the HLD is on „normal“ they extend and retract automatically, but the lever simply deactivate the system.

Not sure, if correct or intended, but that’s how it seem to work atm. 

Still possible I‘m doing it wrong though.

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My apologies.  I clarified the correct response today.  The button arms and deploys the flaps.  The lever is kind of a panic that disarms the switch.  This is how the aircraft was designed.  The term lever is misleading.  It is just a big squeeze button to disarm the flaps.  Combat flaps differs from intermediate flaps by have the leading edge slats controlled by the aircraft to 75% of travel and auto retract the flaps if you get too fast.  The main Flaps switch gives you full slats and stay down so you can overspeed them and damage them.  Combat flaps switch gives you the lift and speed protection.
so in short, the controls work perfect.


Edited by turkeydriver
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3 minutes ago, turkeydriver said:

My apologies.  I clarified the correct response today.  The button arms and deploys the flaps.  The lever is kind of a panic that disarms the switch.  This is how the aircraft was designed.  The term level is misleading.  It is just a big squeeze button to disarm the flaps.  Combat flaps differs from intermediate flaps by have the leading edge slats controlled by the aircraft to 75% of travel.  The main Flaps Spector gives you full slats.  
so in short, the controls work perfect.

Never questioned it! 😁

but thank you for the clarification. Such rather uncommon systems (regarding the aircraft we currently have) are confusing at times. But I think the picture is clear now - at least for me.

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