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CZ deletes offset aimpoints. Correct behaviour?


twistking
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If you assign offset aimpoints and then at any time press CZ the offset aimpoints are gone. Is this correct behaviour?

I thought that OAPs are supposed to be a very quick alternative to markpoints in a sense, to mark additional targets or points of interest. I feel that this deminished by OAPs being deleted with CZ. Is this behaviour correct? Or maybe do i have a wrong idea on how OAPs are supposed to be used?

thanks.


Edited by twistking
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I've noticed a similar thing when I've setup offsets on the DEST page. If you cycle between the OA1, OA2, TGT, RP, etc. it will reset the offset points as you cycle through them. Makes them kind of useless at the moment.

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Offsets have been implemented completely wrong anyway. 

They're not supposed to be merely additional waypoints (you'd just use an another waypoint, if that were the case), they're supposed to act as a true offset - i.e aiming offset from the target waypoint in situations where aiming directly at the waypoint/target isn't possible. All steering and weapon aiming should at all times be towards the Waypoint, with OA1/2 being where the sensor looks, but with the entered offset data defining the Waypoint (.....the target.....) position. ED haven't really understood how this is supposed to work.

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8 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

Offsets have been implemented completely wrong anyway. 

They're not supposed to be merely additional waypoints (you'd just use an another waypoint, if that were the case), they're supposed to act as a true offset - i.e aiming offset from the target waypoint in situations where aiming directly at the waypoint/target isn't possible. All steering and weapon aiming should at all times be towards the Waypoint, with OA1/2 being where the sensor looks, but with the entered offset data defining the Waypoint (.....the target.....) position. ED haven't really understood how this is supposed to work.

what benefit would it have though to have the tgp look at a different point? in the end you still have to trust that mission data is correct, so you could just release on the waypoint with sensors being obscured. could you explain the practical benefit of using an offet aimpoint?

is there a bug report on this already. if you're right that seems to be pretty big oversight by ED and should be corrected...


Edited by twistking
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Just now, twistking said:

what benefit would it have though to have the tgp look at a different point? in the end you still have to trust that mission data is correct, so you could just release on the waypoint with sensors being obscured. could you explain the practical benefit of using an offet aimpoint?

is there a bug report on this already. if you're right that seems to be pretty big oversight by ED and should be corrected...

 

It's not really for the TGP, although it could be used that way. 

It's a left over from the days before GPS. In those days the INS would drift a small amount, the waypoint would then not be over the correct point in the real world. You could use the radar to slew to the correct target, and possibly get a FTT. No problem....but what if the target doesn't show up so well on the radar? Maybe it's a collection of soft tents or another radar insignificant target? You can't see it on radar in that case. But, there's a distinctive looking bridge or building at a known bearing and distance offset from your intended target. This radar offset is exactly what OA1 and 2 are for. You can slew the radar cursors to the bridge, the radar looks at the bridge, but the aiming and waypoint are at all times directing you to the true target. This is what offsets are for. 

Similar for TGP I guess, but it's much easier for the TGP to see the true target, so you'd not use the offset in most cases. Maybe if the target had a laser warning receiver and you want to avoid alerting or was very hard to find even on TGP.

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  • ED Team

If you guys have evidence it is wrong, then you need to produce it. You can do it by PM if it violates 1.16. But this has been set based on our Viper Reference manuals, so if you see an error, evidence is better than sassy comments. Thanks. 

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1 minute ago, AvroLanc said:

It's not really for the TGP, although it could be used that way. 

It's a left over from the days before GPS. In those days the INS would drift a small amount, the waypoint would then not be over the correct point in the real world. You could use the radar to slew to the correct target, and possibly get a FTT. No problem....but what if the target doesn't show up so well on the radar? Maybe it's a collection of soft tents or another radar insignificant target? You can't see it on radar in that case. But, there's a distinctive looking bridge or building at a known bearing and distance offset from your intended target. This radar offset is exactly what OA1 and 2 are for. You can slew the radar cursors to the bridge, the radar looks at the bridge, but the aiming and waypoint are at all times directing you to the true target. This is what offsets are for. 

Similar for TGP I guess, but it's much easier for the TGP to see the true target, so you'd not use the offset in most cases. Maybe if the target had a laser warning receiver and you want to avoid alerting or was very hard to find even on TGP.

ok. thanks for the explanation. it makes a lot of sense if you think pre-gps...

that means the workflow would be to have OA1 and OA2 pre-assigned in mission planning (or with the ded, since mission planning is not yet available in dcs) and then slew the sensor to the terrain feature of which you had the coordinates pre-defined. maybe the implementation is not even wrong; maybe it was just matt wagner's video misrepresenting the use-case.
will have to test again, with predefined OA...

 

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6 minutes ago, twistking said:

ok. thanks for the explanation. it makes a lot of sense if you think pre-gps...

that means the workflow would be to have OA1 and OA2 pre-assigned in mission planning (or with the ded, since mission planning is not yet available in dcs) and then slew the sensor to the terrain feature of which you had the coordinates pre-defined. maybe the implementation is not even wrong; maybe it was just matt wagner's video misrepresenting the use-case.
will have to test again, with predefined OA...

 

I’ve tested it, yeah….it’s not correct. 

Nineline, I’ll dig out the references tomorrow. I suspect they’re the same public ones you’ve already got though. 

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the video in question:

Here Matt Wagner explains it as if it was a quick and dirty way to mark different targets without creating markpoints.
I don't know how it's supposed to function, but it strikes me that the name "Offset Aimpoint" fits better to @AvroLanc's explanation. Unfortuantely i'm not qualified enough to make anything more than sassy comments on this matter. Sorry!


Edited by twistking
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Just now, AvroLanc said:

I’ve tested it, yeah….it’s not correct. 

Nineline, I’ll dig out the references tomorrow. I suspect they’re the same public ones you’ve already got though. 

Thanks, things can get turned around during programming and such, if you find anything that doesn't work as it should, I am happy to take a look.

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if you watch the complete video you'll see that in the beginning matt actually describes OAs in the way AvroLanc did, only at the end where he actually shows them with the TPod, he describes them as more of a SA tool or markpoint type. I've seen that in the Hornet the functionality is also as Avro describes it.
I just tested it in the sim and can confirm that it does not work as it "probably" (!?) should. Bombs will impact on the OA instead of the actual target. Unfortunately i'm not an expert on the subject, so can only state with some certanty that neither workflow is currently possible.

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  • 2 months later...
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It's not and it has changed. OAPs are fixed relationships between sensor point and steerpoint (target). The idea is that you know a fixed relationship like there is a metal tower 1000' to the east of the target. You enter 090.0°/1000FT for OAP and then put the OAP triangle over the metal tower which can be visually through HUD, by TGP, or by FCR track. Once OAP symbol is over the metal tower then you know TD box will be over target 1000' to the west. This is good when target is hard to see with eyes or radar but there is a known offset to a distinct object nearby.

The only way the bearing/range values change is DED/ICP entry by the pilot or DTC load only. Slewing, CZ, etc. don't erase or alter this relationship. If you CZ then steerpoint goes back to where it started and OAP goes back to original location plus the entered offset bearing/distance. They'll get it right with some changes.

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22 minutes ago, Frederf said:

It's not and it has changed. OAPs are fixed relationships between sensor point and steerpoint (target). The idea is that you know a fixed relationship like there is a metal tower 1000' to the east of the target. You enter 090.0°/1000FT for OAP and then put the OAP triangle over the metal tower which can be visually through HUD, by TGP, or by FCR track. Once OAP symbol is over the metal tower then you know TD box will be over target 1000' to the west. This is good when target is hard to see with eyes or radar but there is a known offset to a distinct object nearby.

The only way the bearing/range values change is DED/ICP entry by the pilot or DTC load only. Slewing, CZ, etc. don't erase or alter this relationship. If you CZ then steerpoint goes back to where it started and OAP goes back to original location plus the entered offset bearing/distance. They'll get it right with some changes.

ok. great. thanks for the heads-up.

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Not only, IIRC the Viper doesn't really have any other convenient way of entering a target given as an offset. If you're working with ground troops that can only get you an offset, these are the best ways to enter it without manually converting it to either LAT/LON or MGRS. Of course, that would only come up as part of a campaign, default JTAC will always give you MGRS. This feature is not widely used today, but it has its place.

That said, offsets and VIP/VRP are at their most useful in GPS-deprived environments. If you have a GPS, they're situational at best.


Edited by Dragon1-1
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More or less or in situations where target location is not well known but relative position is. Soldier says "we're in the valley, grid 123987, target is 500' east of the radio tower". There's no precision point to target initially but coords are good enough to get TD box/OAP in the area. Then slew OAP over radio tower and TD box will be over their target.

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