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[question] behavior of R60 and R60M


mastershotgun

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Hello, not sure where I should ask this so I'm going to write it here. I just watched video about adding A2A missiles to the Hind which is fantastic, but I watched it with horror in my eyes anyway... The behavior of the missiles described there is quite different for behavior of the R60 we already have. It does not have cool down / warm up (or how do you want to call it) periods on other planes, also I do not believe the seeker gimbals at all. So what is going on? Those are different missiles? Or are they going to upgrade the behavior everywhere? Do anybody knows? Than you.

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The seeker definitly gimbals. What planes are you comparing it to? 

This is most similar to Su-25A which has  the same gun sight. You have to center the target in the sight, then it will lock. Once locked, the seeker will gimbal to it’s pre launch limit of +/-20 degrees. If target goes past that pre launch gimbal limit the lock will break and the target will need to be re centered again. The R-60M, once launched can gimbal up to +/-45 degrees. These numbers are for any airframe, and written into the DCS LUA that determines it’s behavior in the game no matter where it is. 
 

In the newsletter it does not say the delays are from cooling, but that the 60 seconds is a warm up time, likely for the batteries and power, some types of batteries take time. And the 10 second after selecting a pylon is for the gyros to spin up. 
 

The Su-25A/T models are also FC3 and low fidelity, they do not model all systems behavior; so it might be expected to not model warm up time and gyro spin up time. MiG-29 is also low fidelity and does not model its systems in depth currently. 
 

Are you comparing it to something per chance? In MiG-21, which is a high fidelity plane? In that plane you must also center target to get a lock, the the missile can gimbal I believe to its pre launch limits, allowing you to pull lead. I don’t think it has a power up or gyro spin up time, but that is developed by Magnitude 3, a different company then ED, and that was either their choice for the sake of simplicity or a hold over from back when the module was much simpler. 


Edited by AeriaGloria
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Yap, I was talking about all Russin airframes... Specially the MiG-19 and MiG-21. The R60 was basically Russian Sidewinder until replaced by R73's, so all airframes of that era were using it. None of them in the DCS have the "gyro spin up" or cool down (call it what ever) modeled in, so I was under impression that they all use the same "game object model". If they update it, will it update for all airframes, or do all of them use its own thing, if it make sense?

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5 hours ago, mastershotgun said:

Yap, I was talking about all Russin airframes... Specially the MiG-19 and MiG-21. The R60 was basically Russian Sidewinder until replaced by R73's, so all airframes of that era were using it. None of them in the DCS have the "gyro spin up" or cool down (call it what ever) modeled in, so I was under impression that they all use the same "game object model". If they update it, will it update for all airframes, or do all of them use its own thing, if it make sense?

Well MiG-19 doesn’t have the R-60. This warm up/gyro spin up feature is an interaction of the module and the missile, not part of the missile code itself. ED is trying to realistically implement how it was used, the module probably just has a code that says “missile can be locked and fired x many seconds after switch y is in x postion.” 

In L-39 however, the ONLY other full fidelity module using the R-60M,  to fire you must also turn on a switch to allow missile power to cool itself/spin up gyros, but I do not know if there is delay between pressing the switch and before missile is ready 

In addition, any changes to R-60M By ED do not effect MiG-21 R-60M, as they are separate missile files. There is an “P-60” for ED’s R-60M, and a “R-60M” LUA file for Magnitude 3s R-60M for MiG-21, so they are entirely separate, as you would call it a different “game object model” 


Edited by AeriaGloria
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19 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

In the hind video the lock tone is intermittent (slow beeping), but on the L-39 it's steady with the R-60M.

Yeah I thought that was interesting. Almost like the 2 HZ HMS flashing in Su-27/MiG-29/Ka-50 showing valid lock 

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The Hind is probably more correct, however, it might also be a difference in how the system is implemented. I don't think any of them directly feed seeker voltage to the headphones the way early Sidewinders did.

The MiG-21 is getting updated, fortunately, so there's a chance it'll switch over to ED's R-60 implementation.

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20 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

The Hind is probably more correct, however, it might also be a difference in how the system is implemented. I don't think any of them directly feed seeker voltage to the headphones the way early Sidewinders did.

The MiG-21 is getting updated, fortunately, so there's a chance it'll switch over to ED's R-60 implementation.

Actually they did, the technology back then was what it was... The airframes did not had comupters back then, well not the way we understand what a computer is these days, anyway 😄

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1 hour ago, mastershotgun said:

Actually they did, the technology back then was what it was... The airframes did not had comupters back then, well not the way we understand what a computer is these days, anyway 😄

They did? Are you saying you know that the Mi-24P, L-39, or MiG-21 actually feed R-60 seeker signal conversion into analog audio directly to pilot? 

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1 hour ago, mastershotgun said:

Actually they did, the technology back then was what it was... 

It's not about technology, it's about approach to the problem. If you think you need a computer to do processing on an IR signal, your understanding of electronics is simplistic. In fact, the Sidewinder originally had an analog voltimeter, until pilots complained that they wanted an auditory cue, since they'd rather be looking at the bandit and not at a tiny voltimeter needle. The US most definitely had direct audio output on early Sidewinders, up until either the Mike (where it changed to an imaging seeker), but I don't know if the Soviets copied that approach for their own missiles (the idea wasn't quite as obvious at is seems!) or if they used a more roundabout way, like wiring up a buzzer that would buzz when the signal exceeds a threshold. In particular, a buzzer approach could very well sound different form aircraft to aircraft. A pulsating tone would most likely not be generated by the missile, but rather by the aircraft itself. 

If the R-60 feeds the voltage from the IR sensor directly to the headphones, it should sound like an early AIM-9, and R-60M should sound like AIM-9L, because it's similar seeker technology. This would give them a "Sidewinder growl" very similar to the genuine article. If they do beep in the real Mi-24, then it's not direct audio, Sidewinders, as a rule, don't beep except perhaps when in the process of locking (which would be from the head repeatedly overshooting the target when scanning and settling closer onto it with each scan).

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I can tell you from some quick testing there definitely is a "sidewinder growl" of sorts on the L-39ZA simulation.

Not saying who's right, or what is true. Just reporting my experience from testing. Because I own both the L-39 and Mi-24, and I was curious.

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On 6/7/2022 at 10:50 PM, mastershotgun said:

Actually they did, the technology back then was what it was... The airframes did not had comupters back then, well not the way we understand what a computer is these days, anyway 😄

The missile is old, but as far as I understand it was implemented in the Hind sometime during the 80s, and they could have done things somewhat differently back then.

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There’s many videos of R-73 launches with audio. In that case it is a steady lock tone (like in the FC3 jets) not a sidewinder ”growl”. If this also applies to R-60M, I don’t know.

MiG-21bis module has the steady tone for all missiles. I think it’s by design. Once a lock on conditions is met, the system feeds a lock signal into the pilot headphones. Not 100% sure, but I think it has come up during discussions over the years as correct behaviour.

L-39 lock on growl has nothing to do with the R-60M feed. Tone was created for the R-3S on the L-39C.

With the L-39ZA, ED just added the R-60M missile. It inherited all the features already implemented for R-3S. Same growl and even the rear-aspect only capability.

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Front of R-60 (fixed seeker):

54I0qDJ.jpg

hmE9MsM.jpg

btw. 

 


Edited by YoYo
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