Will F14 get assisted air-to-air refueling?

[iqapple]

I really appreciate the F14 module and had a lot of fun from it. But I can't do AAR which bugs me a lot. Assisted air-to-air refueling will be super helpful to players with crappy joysticks or casual players like me. Do you have plans to add it?

 

Thanks

[iqapple]

I believe an autopilot system used in civil aviation could be sufficient. 

[near_blind]

I don't think a feature like that is planned. 

[iqapple]

7 minutes ago, near_blind said:

I don't think a feature like that is planned. 

I think it is a good feature to add, right?

[lunaticfringe]

1 hour ago, iqapple said:

I believe an autopilot system used in civil aviation could be sufficient. 

There is no civil aviation autopilot system that can autonomously position itself within a roughly 3.5 cubic foot box to make a plug while referencing another moving aircraft, and compensate for its deviations in three dimensional space in real time, to hold the formation require for AAR.

Air to air refueling is a skill to develop base upon flying formation.  If you can't hold effective formation with a tanker, work on your formation with another fighter.  If you're unable or unwilling to develop that skillset further, the unlimited fuel checkbox is the feature you're looking for. 

[ShinyMikey]

Don't give up! I have a better hotas now, but was first able to do aar using my old TM hotas-x. When you finally get it, it will feel great.

[Nexus-6]

1 hour ago, iqapple said:

I think it is a good feature to add, right?

I very much doubt that Heatblur is going to spend time and energy implementing something that no one aside from you (so far) is asking for.  Digital Combat Simulator is known as a "study sim", and for a very good reason.  Proficiency in all areas can take a very long time and is only achieved through steady practice.  If AAR isn't something you have the time or desire to work on, then perhaps you should consider the "unlimited fuel" option, as stated above.  OR, perhaps a study sim isn't what you're looking for...

[iqapple]

1 hour ago, ShinyMikey said:

Don't give up! I have a better hotas now, but was first able to do aar using my old TM hotas-x. When you finally get it, it will feel great.

What HOTAS are you using? I am using Logitech extreme 3d and found it is extremely hard to do small adjustments.

[iqapple]

2 hours ago, Nexus-6 said:

I very much doubt that Heatblur is going to spend time and energy implementing something that no one aside from you (so far) is asking for.  Digital Combat Simulator is known as a "study sim", and for a very good reason.  Proficiency in all areas can take a very long time and is only achieved through steady practice.  If AAR isn't something you have the time or desire to work on, then perhaps you should consider the "unlimited fuel" option, as stated above.  OR, perhaps a study sim isn't what you're looking for...

I think you are right Heatblur probably won't spend time on this feature. I still think assisted AAR will smooth the learning curve and be more friendly to new players. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by iqapple

[Torbernite]

AAR is always one of the most difficult practice in DCS for new players. And I doubt whether a good assisted tutorial could be provided in present DCS environment. Without a real instructor, the in-game tutorial can hardly teach you how to stabilize the oscillating plane or the correct way to align the probe and drogue, which need some sudden enlightenment after heavy practice. And the F-14 has no FBW and need more practice to well control and adds up to the difficulty. I don't know if F-14 is your first aircraft to try AAR. If so, you would have to face problem from both the AAR methodology and F-14 flight characteristics.

If you need an easier start you can try the FC3 Su-33 or the Hornet. Su-33 has an AAR flight control mode, Hornet has a better digital FBW system, and both have ATC. You can build up basic sense for AAR on those friendly aircrafts. Especially pay attention to the Su-33, feel how the AAR mode controls the aircraft and try to manually simulate its handling on other aircrafts. After completing that, you should have a basic impression of how to do an general AAR operation. Then back to F-14 you just need to adapt to the lack of modern flight control system. 

Edited June 6, 2022 by Torbernite

[Karon]

3 hours ago, iqapple said:

What HOTAS are you using? I am using Logitech extreme 3d and found it is extremely hard to do small adjustments.

It's mostly a matter of technique, rather than peripherals. For example, if you find the visual cues on the tanker and follow them, you don't have to chase the basket.

There are so many videos around explaining how to make the whole process easier (trim, wings, the mentioned visual cues, etc). Have a look at those, arm yourself with patience, and eventually, you will succeed

[Wrcknbckr]

Don't start AAR without hours of formation flying first! Hardware does not matter, hardware will never do it for you. It's your flying technique / muscle memory... Keep it up! You'll succeed.

[Sideburns]

I think some good points have been made on the significant amount of focussed practice required and practicing other types of formation flying really help get AAR done. But I would disagree a little with the hardware comment. Having gone from a Saitek Cyborg gold -> Saitek X-55 -> TM warthog and now a VPC Warbrd base, precise flying definitely gets easier with higher end joystick hardware, I imagine having an extension makes it even easier. It is still possible to refuel with a lower end joystick, but I found that having a "seamless centre", i.e. easy to move to and from the centre joystick position / uniform force, really helped and made AAR a joy rather than a frustration for me. Otherwise applying some curves to the joystick profile can help.

Also in the F14 (you've probably seen this guidance before but just in case), setting wings to bombcat mode, trimming, using minimal stick movements, switching Jester on silent, practicing on a larger tanker and focussing on a reference spot on the tanker plane rather than the basket really help.

Edit: Just to be clear, its takes most DCS and real life pilots a lot of practice to AAR, keep on practicing and you will get there.

Edited June 6, 2022 by Sideburns

[IronMike]

Logitech Extreme 3d pro is not a bad stick, in fact I've flown it for years successfully myself and the stick ain't the issue for doing proper AAR. Do better sticks help? Sure. But they are not key, unless your stick has stiction issues or is old, aka actively fighting you on the precise inputs you want to deliver. Because then no muscle memory in the world helps. Teflon grease btw is a good thing to have handy for low end sticks, and applying it twice a year helps.

As for assisted refueling, we do not (and will not) have such plans, simply because the time and work needed to make it work nicely, would literally mean weeks, if not months, just to defeat one of the best incentives for you to hoan your flying, formation and ultimately refueling skills.

Don't get me wrong, inclusivity for new players is very important to us, but where and at what cost and what for needs to be considered. A new player should have incentives of learning the sim, not to not learn it. For everything else there are already assists in place, like invulnerable, unlimited fuel and ultimately the game mode where refueling simply isn't necessary. 

As others mentioned, forget about refueling for now. Learn how to fly precisely first, then learn how to fly formations. Only then attempt refueling. Else you are trying to put the cart before your horse, if that makes sense. Take it one step at a time, know that we all struggled like you struggle now, and with persistance you will overcome these issues eventually.

Can you hold altitude for say half an hour straight within +/-20ish feet? While holding a precise speed at the same time? And additionally holding a bank level +/-5° with the two aforementioned items? If no, this is where you need to start first.

Maybe this tutorial will help you a bit. It is by no means comprehensive, but you should 100% be able to do that, before you even go anywhere close to AAR. Next, learn to fly formation on a tanker, without refueling. And by formation I mean no losely hanging about, but keeping a precise position in relation to the reference from the tanker you choose.
 

 

[draconus]

It's pretty popular it seems but I'm personally against. It's like asking for a "win" button in the name of accessibility. No plans currently for such a feature.

 

Take on a quiz:

 

[NahkaSukka]

I'm pretty good at AAR in Hornet but i'm really bad at it in Tomcat. But i'd never want some kind "easy mode" that would just feel lame and cheating. I just need more practice, i know i will learn it eventually.

[Zaphael]

Practice. Thats all there is. 

Practice fine movement for formation flight, fine power corrections.

Practice sight picture for one tanker, then for all tankers.

Practice to refresh skills.

That's the fun of DCS.

[Dragon1-1]

Wings to bomb, HUD to AA, put 30 on the hose and drive it straight in.  The Tomcat is actually pretty easy to AAR once you get the visual cues right and trim it up OK. I did with my old CH (haven't tried with Winwing yet, but I refueled the A-10, I'm sticking to ground pounding until the AI improvements come out). Also, start with the B, A requires you to be further ahead of the airplane with the throttle, because the engines respond slower.

[Jackjack171]

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Wings to bomb, HUD to AA, put 30 on the hose and drive it straight in.  The Tomcat is actually pretty easy to AAR once you get the visual cues right and trim it up OK. I did with my old CH (haven't tried with Winwing yet, but I refueled the A-10, I'm sticking to ground pounding until the AI improvements come out). Also, start with the B, A requires you to be further ahead of the airplane with the throttle, because the engines respond slower.

Spot on. I own the Winwing F/A-18 Super Taurus/Libra setup and it's amazing! The stick extension makes a HUGE difference. IMHO, he should start with the "A" however. If you can master the A, the B isn't a thing at all! 
Also, I use headphones, if @iqapplehas or can grab a set or good speakers, you can hear and "feel" when the airplane is trucking along as you'd like. HB made sure the airplane "talks" to you, listen to her!
 

[Marklar]

14 hours ago, Wrcknbckr said:

Don't start AAR without hours of formation flying first! Hardware does not matter, hardware will never do it for you. It's your flying technique / muscle memory... Keep it up! You'll succeed.

Waste of time. I can do AAR in every plane available in DCS and never spent a single minute practicing formation flying. I’d give up very quickly if I followed advices like yours. 

[Biggus]

I'm going to go against the grain and say that yes, hardware can matter.  The caveat is that you need to have reached a point where the resolution of the hardware is holding you back, rather than a lack of hours spent building experience.  You should be able to hold a reasonable formation with pretty low-end hardware, though.  I went from a Warthog base where I was able to connect but unable to stay connected for more than 2,000lb at a time, and then I switched to a WarBRD.  Instantly was able to go from fumes to full on a single connection.  But I'd had thousands of hours in DCS on the Warthog (several hundred just in the Tomcat alone) and I suspect that I'm probably an edge case.  I know there are plenty of people out there managing just fine with low-end peripherals, but this is just my experience.

[cjladd11]

Kind of defeats the purpose and unspoken motto of DCS of being “as real as it gets.” Sure I’d love to be able to plug up every time I take the Tomcat in the sim, but like others have posted, it takes practice. I think I’m at a 1 out of 30 times being able to plug on the first approach.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[IronMike]

On 6/7/2022 at 1:10 AM, Marklar said:

Waste of time. I can do AAR in every plane available in DCS and never spent a single minute practicing formation flying. I’d give up very quickly if I followed advices like yours. 

You literally practiced - a specific form of - formation flying when practicing AAR. However for many flying off a tanker while trying to stay connected or connecting at all, is more intimidating than trying to start flying a lose formation of its wing. It does not always work to judge others by one's own standards.

His advice is spot on and sound advice for the majority of ppl.

Edited June 8, 2022 by IronMike

[Marklar]

7 hours ago, IronMike said:

You literally practiced - a specific form of - formation flying when practicing AAR.

Yes, and because I was focused only on AAR I learned it in 1/10th of the time I'd spent on practice formation flying first and then AAR.

[IronMike]

3 minutes ago, Marklar said:

Yes, and because I was focused only on AAR I learned it in 1/10th of the time I'd spent on practice formation flying first and then AAR.

Which is fine, but ultimately very subjective.