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Wingman AI- Standoff Issues


Murderous
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Ok, I've searched a bit and really haven't found any threads bringing up the problem with wingmen and standoff engagements. I can't seem to get my wingmen to maintain position alongside myself or at least outside of the enemy's systems. Most of the time, the AI will fly right over the target and become endlessly engaged defensive until he's dead. Does anybody have any technique or procedure to get around this quirk?

 

*scenario*

I find 3 columns of tanks, bmps, and MLRS. defended by AAA.

I datalink respective columns to wingmen...we are at 5km out.

I tell each wingman to engage datalink target by type...

Wingmen fly into the engagement zone of the target columns and....die.

 

Is there a command or a technique to keep them at 3-5 KM out?

 

Oh, and to the DCS team...truly unbelievable job with v1.0!!! Thanks for tuning out the endless "release it now!" and delivering a product that works first time around. (If this wingman thing is the biggest gripe I have, thats a good sign.)

 

Murd


Edited by Murderous
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i haven't learned how, but I recently read you can use the data link to set standoff points and targets for AI wingman in flight. One of the producers notes vids shows some of this.

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I only have seen ingress points and no standoff points.

When assigning targets for the wingman they do the same stupid thing and get shot down. :crash:

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I find that giving wingmen the 'engage ground targets' order or the 'resume mission and rejoin' order (I know these are not the exact wordings) rather than the specific 'attack my target' (or datalink target) orders results in wingman standing off to attack rather than running in and getting blow away.

 

Last night I set and gave my wingman the 'go to datalinked location' command and then the engage mission and rejoin. They stood off nicely at the datalinked locations and smoked everything in sight!:thumbup: I still want to do some testing to exactly confirm the behaviour they will exhibit when given particular commands though.

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I have to admit it is hit and miss with my AI. Sometimes I can't even get them to see the moving targets right in front of them at 5 KM with the same line of sight as me. I tell them to engage and they say negative or whatever negative response they come up with. I am thinking more and more that it has to do with the AI "Level" setting of Good, Excellent, etc.

Dusty Rhodes

 

Play HARD, Play FAIR, Play TO WIN

 

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  • 2 weeks later...

And: is there a possibility just to assign an ingress point to the Wingman? I saved an ingress point with the Skhval, sent it to my wingman and pressed F2 (Wingman), F3 Goto and F3 Datalink Point. He always answered "Negative"...

It doesn't work. Does he always need to have a target assigned as well? Would be nice at the beginning of a mission to tell him where to go until I assign targets to him...

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I just tested the datalink method and my wingman took a hover position at 6.5 km. from the target and engaged with ATGMs. Out initial position was 10 km. from the target. Looks normal to me.

 

What about the other method - just attack <something>. Is AI capable of maintaining proper distance?

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I don't want to open a new thread (like so many others):

 

My question is still open, but I guess an answer could be around. BTW. I read the manual, but didn't find a solution. At least I learned how to transfer Target Points from the Navigation Panel to the Data Link / ABRIS.

 

So again my question:

Is there a possibility to assign an ingress point to a Wingman, without giving him a target?! So if you give him the order F2, F3, F3 -> Goto Datalink Point he just stays there without doing anything!

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I think yes there is. I'm looking into it now and I'm going to assume you have a NAV/TGT point saved in the PVI or a location saved in your datalink memory that you wish to send to the wingman as a location point and also that you have the required DL systems on, set to command, and the AI is on your freqency.

 

You can send either a PVI-800 NAVTGT point or a position saved in the datalink memory to your wingman. Acedy is right. This is from the manual 7-7, 7-8; developer's video note; and testing.

 

EDIT: I was wrong, the results are changed! Please read again.

Sending Datalink Points to Other Ka-50s in the Flight

USING A PVI-800 NAVTGT POINT:

1. Engage PVI NAVTGT mode

2. Select NAVTGT point number

3. Verify point is flashing on ABRIS display

4. Select point type via DL panel

5. Select recipient(s)

6. Send

 

USING A SHKVAL POINT:

1. Disengage NAVTGT mode (if active)

2. Ground stabalize Shkval with range

3. Select point type via DL panel

4. Memory

5. Send DL memory point using method below

 

USING A DL MEMORY POINT:

1. Disengage NAVTGT mode (if active)

2. Verfiy Shkval does not have valid point (recage/reset or cycle laser off/on to break ranging)

3. Select point type via multiple presses on DL panel until desired point is flashing

4. Select recipient(s)

5. Send

 

DELETING A SINGLE DL MEMORY POINT:

1. Reset targeting system or break laser rangefinding (laser standby off/on)

2. Press appropriate DL panel button until point flashes on ABRIS display

3. Press Clear on DL panel

 

DELETING ALL DL MEMORY POINTS:

1. Turn PVI-DL power switch off and then on again

 

INGRESS POINTS VERSUS ALL OTHER POINT TYPES:

Ingress points are not valid destinations but are always used as an intermediary point prior to a final travel or attack destination. AI wingmen will remember up to 1 ingress points and 1 other point type maximum.

 

0 Other Points, 0 Ingress Points

Goto: Will not be possible, no destination

Attack: Will not be possible, no target

 

1 Other Point, 0 Ingress Points

Goto: Will go directly to point from current location

Attack: Will attack directly from current location

 

0 Other Points, 1 Ingress Point

Goto: Will not be possible, no destination

Attack: Will not be possible, no target

 

1 Other Point, 1 Ingress Point

Goto: Will fly to the ingress point first and then travel from the ingress point to the other point

Attack: Will fly to the ingress point first and then attack at the other point


Edited by Frederf
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So again my question:

Is there a possibility to assign an ingress point to a Wingman, without giving him a target?! So if you give him the order F2, F3, F3 -> Goto Datalink Point he just stays there without doing anything!

 

Ingress points can only be used in conjuntion with other points send via datalink, wingmen ignore them if sent alone.

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  • 3 weeks later...
I just tested the datalink method and my wingman took a hover position at 6.5 km. from the target and engaged with ATGMs. Out initial position was 10 km. from the target. Looks normal to me.

 

To do this did you Send an Ingress Point and then tell him to attack, and he went to the IP and stood-off from target?

 

Thanks, Mike

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I don't want to open a new thread (like so many others):

 

My question is still open, but I guess an answer could be around. BTW. I read the manual, but didn't find a solution. At least I learned how to transfer Target Points from the Navigation Panel to the Data Link / ABRIS.

 

So again my question:

Is there a possibility to assign an ingress point to a Wingman, without giving him a target?! So if you give him the order F2, F3, F3 -> Goto Datalink Point he just stays there without doing anything!

 

You don't even have to do this with the "Ingress" button. You can also skhval a point and store in the data link with the square generic or Nav Target button the send that point to your wingy and have him goto. He will usually engage from that point without drifting or driving in unless he himself is engaged.

 

If terrain makes the skhval method impractical, you can ERBL the disired point on the ABRIS and then assign that Lat/Long to a Nav TGT on the PVI.

Smokin' Hole

 

My DCS wish list: Su25, Su30, Mi24, AH1, F/A-18C, Afghanistan ...and frankly, the flight sim world should stop at 1995.

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Been flying my own missions with excellent wingmen.

NO PROBLEMS AT ALL. Every time - firing from stand off range.

 

I HAVE had major issues with brain dead wingmen, so I guess it was because the mission creator made them less than excellent.

 

that's the answer then.......make sure you've trained your wingmen up :pilotfly:

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  • 3 months later...

I too think that line of sight plays a role in how and where the AI engages targets. I suppose any AI has the tendency to be 'regimented' into attack or defense procedures, where it could well walk itself right into a AAA battery during a stand-off attack or when dodging incoming missiles.

 

I seem to spend an inordinate amount of time making 'sandbox' situations in games (ArmA in particular) where I create situations and see how the AI responds. It inevitably leads to some degree of micromanagement or babysitting, but certainly is useful to plot appropriately during mission design to get them to do what you want.

 

As an aside, I'm reminded of a sim in the mid-90s from Simis/Kuju called Team Alligator (which involved Ka-52s no less) which had a more RPG-like approach to wingman, as they were 'personalities' prone to fatigue, morale, and had 'specialties'. I remember after missions you could 'boost' the morale by giving out leave and chocolate bars.

 

The publisher, if I recall, had a role in 'neutering' the game for a broader audience, and the RPG elements didn't really show through in the AI, leading into excessive micromanagement simply to save the wingmen from themselves. I can't remember the AI command hierarchy, but it was far simpler (or maybe just simplistic) and required far more intervention. In Black Shark, AI pilots aren't carried over from mission to mission with their tiers of expertise (novice, good, et.al.) unless the mission designer considers it through the campaign. In any quasi-RPG squadron management simulation like Team Alligator, Team Apache (it's predecessor) or ArmA: Queens Gambit (or even Falcon 3 or 4) I'd usually have a "ship of fools / car of idiots" (to quote a Far Side cartoon) by the end of the campaign.

 

All in all, I think the AI in Black Shark is alright, save for some odd times where helicopters would enter an odd low-speed missile defense mode where they actually bounced off the ground while popping flares.


Edited by Strekaya
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