Thanks for the New Viper FM

[fapador]

A step in the right direction...

Finally I can pull those sharp rolls. Also New DFLCS feels Awesome. Tanks/ stores drag feels reasonable good aswell.

I have judged Vipers FM in the past so I make this post in order to point the good things too.

Don't get me wrong I still find some issues here and there with the Viper's handling like most notably an excessive nose drop when banking still making Knife Edge maneuvers hard IMO however I recognize the progress made...

Keep up the good work. 

[Hummingbird]

Credit where credit is due, this is an excellent update!! 

The overshoot/undershoot oscillation in pitch is gone, and the aircraft is a lot more stable in pitch inline with real life DFLCS logic, HUD tapes and pilot testimony.

 

Well done ED! 

 

[RuskyV]

I’m really loving how it handles with the new update. Feels so much better.

great stuff ED!

[Glide]

A thing of beauty!  Thank you once again!

[XCNuse]

Wait really?

 

I'm seeing Vipers do backflips in place!

What on earth happened!?

[RuskyV]

6 hours ago, XCNuse said:

Wait really?

 

I'm seeing Vipers do backflips in place!

What on earth happened!?

Still lots of work to do but definitely a step in the right direction. I’m sure the issues some are seeing will get sorted.

[Lace]

Seems a lot more lively in CAT III - almost like CAT I was previously.

[Terzi]

I just want to add a comment here regarding to yaw control (rudder)

When you bank the jet 90 degrees and apply rudder to keep the level flight, no matter how fast/slow you are the nose will drop. Either the rudder control is not enough or the nose is falling down for some other reason.

I have seen in aerobatic shows that real life F-16C can do this. I can provide video if needed. They can do a slow roll in a straight line: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slow_roll_(aeronautics)

[Exorcet]

3 hours ago, FullMetal_cooKie said:

I don't understand either. ED fucks up the FLCS and the viper get into a flat spin now when you roll, but everyone seems to love it...

 

It's not like rolling anywhere gets you into a spin. You have to very deliberately pull a violent maneuver at low speed where you have less control authority. I've only done it a couple of times, but pitch override got me out easily.

 

EDIT

 

I happened to stumble upon a relevant video:

It looks like the departure behavior might be pretty accurate, though the recovery behavior might need to be improved. I haven't been able to recover without pitch override.

Edited June 9, 2022 by Exorcet

[fapador]

And reason why this is happening here. 

 

5 hours ago, Exorcet said:

It's not like rolling anywhere gets you into a spin. You have to very deliberately pull a violent maneuver at low speed where you have less control authority. I've only done it a couple of times, but pitch override got me out easily.

 

EDIT

 

I happened to stumble upon a relevant video:

 

[RuskyV]

Both those videos were very interesting, I think it goes along way to explaining why some are now experiencing this behaviour.

I'm sure more tweaking is needed in the departure/recovery portion of the flight model, however this is also the first time people are now experiencing this with the F16 which is a big positive as it seems to now be approaching something even more close to reality. 

As said before good job on the changes!

[- Sonic -]

wait...is normal that with last patch seem that autotrim is gone? CATIII seem like CATI and the plane is really unstable :(...that's normal??

[RuskyV]

There are a number of new bugs introduced since the new FM update that you can read about in the Bugs section of the forum, these have all been introduced since the tweaks.

 

[Burt]

Can someone explain how this is being applied in a bfm situation. I'm trying to understand what and how this is being used - the process. 

@ fapador

Disregard I think I got it now after a few reads

Edited June 10, 2022 by Burt

[Vortex225]

Absolutely love the FM tuning and recent FLCS updates. Please keep up the great work, ED! 

[Terzi]

I just want to share my user experience after flying this version of FLCS about 10 hours:

1- Auto-trim got a bit worse. I now need more stick corrections now to keep desired pitch during climbs.

2- During takeoffs and landings lift seems decreased to me. I now feel like I need to add 5-10 knots for takeoff/landings.

3- Prior to touchdown, flare maneuver reduces the sink rate less than before.

4- Pitching the nose up during takeoff will raise the nose too much immediately. If I am not careful it is very easy to exceed 14 degrees.

5- Aerodynamic braking got more difficult (it was somehow difficult already). Now its even harder to keep the nose ~10 degrees after landing.

6- FLCS transitions got seamless.

7- Roll input responses got stronger. I needed to add 10 points of axis curve to keep my old habits.

Please do not ask where I got the information. I am not SME. These are just my feelings coupled with my previous muscle memory.

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

thank you for the feedback, if there is something that needs adjusting we will take a look, but we need evidence, we can not go just on feelings. 

thanks

[tae.]

I've been playing the Viper since close to its EA release and I must say this is perhaps one of the best, if not THE best change that the Viper has received so far.

No longer does pulling on the stick feel like a "suggestion" you are making to the aircraft that it thinks about doing, and then shrugs its shoulders and sluggishly does.

It FEELS like I am piloting a small twitchy fighter jet. It FEELS like a Viper. Out of all the FM updates, I seriously think this was the best one.

The low speed nose authority is drastically improved, which has direct tactical/combat implications - now we can push to higher altitudes and lower airspeeds and still have strong maneuverability, which can make the difference between life or death in many situations.

The pitch and roll gains are seriously improved and allow for almost unbelievable instantaneous snaps, pulling G got a lot easier to do, and the roll rate is just astonishing and has boosted the maneuverability of the jet to the moon.

After the thousands of hours I flew on the old FM, this new one makes me feel invincible, and like I can pull anything off in the jet. Fantastic work ED!

[Hummingbird]

The FM has definitely improved a lot, and I truly appreciate the step forward here. But there are still some obvious bugs that need ironing out, and it seems also some tuning to be done in some places. But I think ED will be on it quick.

Edited June 16, 2022 by Hummingbird

[Xavven]

On 6/9/2022 at 4:40 AM, Exorcet said:

It's not like rolling anywhere gets you into a spin. You have to very deliberately pull a violent maneuver at low speed where you have less control authority. I've only done it a couple of times, but pitch override got me out easily.

 

[snip]

It looks like the departure behavior might be pretty accurate, though the recovery behavior might need to be improved. I haven't been able to recover without pitch override.

 

 

The FLCS is actively worsening recovery in my testing. 

1. Induce a spin by climbing at 90 degrees, pulling throttle to idle, then pulling full aft stick with some roll when the plane stalls. Optionally add full rudder in the direction of roll.

2. If the nose isn't below the horizon, hold the MPO switch and rock the nose up and down in time with its natural swing until the nose is below horizon.

3. Once nose-down, ensure idle throttle (should have been this whole time since departing controlled flight) and neutralize all control inputs.

4. For a second, the plane appears to be falling straight down in a nose-down attitude (forward flight) and all you have to do is wait to gain airspeed and recover, however the plane begins a violent nose-down summersault (with fully neutralized stick!). If you use the external F2 view, you can see the tailerons are being commanded full pitch-down even if you're already actively spinning in a pitch-down direction already, worsening the pitch rate! This is very bizarre FLCS behavior.

Screenshot taken one second before disaster (started from 40,000 ft and would not recover for the whole way down):

 

 

[Burt]

The jet wobbles to much, it’s not right. I can’t adjust the R3L to stabilize it. 

[SCPanda]

On 6/20/2022 at 12:00 AM, Burt said:

The jet wobbles to much, it’s not right. I can’t adjust the R3L to stabilize it. 

Same here from another R3L user. I noticed when I gently pitch up for let's say 5 degrees with 1.2 Gs pull. After releaseing the stick, the FLCS will twitch the jet to 0.8 G then finally rest to 1G. Feels really weird. 

Edited June 21, 2022 by SCPanda

[BIGNEWY]

Wait for the next patch and try again, but also check your controls. 

If you still think there is a problem after the patch attach a track replay and any evidence you have that something is wrong and we will take a look. 

thanks