reported TADS BUG RELATED THE USE OF THE LMC+LASER, last OB update

[FTV-Randy]

Tested on MP ans SP as well, reproducted all times. on CPG on last update DCS 2.7.15.25026 OB:
-moving the tads normally no problem,
-moving it normally+laser on no problem,
-moving it with LMC on no problem,
moving it with LMC+laser on, the tads will move abrubt to full right or left and it will not move anymore untill you switch off the lmc
Track file attach

bug LMC+laser.trk

Edited June 8, 2022 by FTV-Randy
added version

[Aigle2]

Same. Apache is unplayable because of this...

[Floyd1212]

Confirmed.  Just ran into this in MP with a friend in the CPG seat.  This is very bad.

[Piker]

Signed up just to report this. Same bug here.

[Balu010]

Same, LMC+Laser = TADS going crazy

[BIGNEWY]

Hi, 

we will have some LMC tweaks in the next update. For now be careful with the laser and LMC it is jumping as you describe. 
Personally I have been manually tracking while the LMC is tweaked. 

thanks

[Lazerhawk]

I experience the same problem since OB 2.7.15.25026 Open Beta (8-JUN-2022).

[dedlike.]

i dont think there is much to explain here, as you can see in the vid, it looks like the way How LMC works got... inverted? 

Me and my friend have this problem ,didnt test this in singleplayer yet

 

I got a VKB gunfighter Mk3 with relatively good gimbals, and a deadzone of 5%(for this test) i can assure you this is not a problem of me tuching the stick

 

Trackfile:

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1e5DbQjMdwXbPhxXBAaWJUSEZu-9xU8Pw/view?usp=sharing

sorry for the long track, My fiend got the problem earlyer once aproching the AO,

What you are seeing in the vid happend preaty much at the end of the track file

Edited June 10, 2022 by dedlike.

[Kharrn]

because of this problem it currently is nearly impossible to lase and track moving targets or if you are moving yourself, especially when you have a new/inexperienced pilot.

Please fix this asap, thank you!

K

[Kharrn]

 

[BIGNEWY]

posts merged, this is reported thank you

[gman77]

In our testing (limited) we found the bug is active when the helicopter is moving but much less so when it is in a stable hover.

[Punisher74]

I have had it go completely crazy when the LMC + Laser. Slowly moves top right or left, and about 23 secs into it shoots to the sky.

[Floyd1212]

I still feel like this isn't quite right, but better than it was. 

I'm not getting the "fly-away" condition and loss of control when LMC is engaged in combination with the laser, but it still doesn't ground stab. nicely unless you come off the laser before hitting LMC button.

Anyone else getting better results?

[Floyd1212]

Quick video of what I am referring to:

 

[Raptor9]

8 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

but it still doesn't ground stab

There is a misconception that the LMC is a ground stabilization mechanism. And while that is how the behavior certainly manifested up until recently, or even in the futire in certain situations, it's not. It's a slew rate stabilization function. The addition of the TSE simply assists the LMC in maintaining the slew rate for the current estimated target location/velocity, which is why the slew rate jumps when the range updates all of a sudden. (A vehicle traveling at 50 kmh at 4 km will require less slew rate to track than if it was at 2 km at the same speed)

Of course, the LMC may need tuning as more situations and scenarios are tried and tested in the coming weeks and months, but I just wanted to ensure that the expectation of how it works isn't perpetuated on misconceptions. It works using magic. (Joking)

[Floyd1212]

Hmm.  So if the helo is traveling in a straight line, and I enable LMC while looking at a tree, I shouldn't expect it stay fixed on that tree until I nudge it in one direction or another?

I can understand that it might not be able to do that until I lase the ground for a moment, but I guess I was expecting to be able to continuously lase something, then enable it, and it would hold that spot.  That seems to be what it is doing if I release the laser before enable LMC, but not if I enable it while continuously lasing.

[Raptor9]

40 minutes ago, Floyd1212 said:

Hmm.  So if the helo is traveling in a straight line, and I enable LMC while looking at a tree, I shouldn't expect it stay fixed on that tree until I nudge it in one direction or another?

If you are flying along, with the LMC off and the TADS not being slewed (meaning you aren't pressing the MAN TRK controller in any direction), let's say it is pointed at your left side at 10 o'clock. When you enable LMC, the TADS will not start slewing un-commanded, meaning that the TADS will still be looking at the same direction relative to the aircraft nose, regardless of what is physically beyond it within the video, the only thing that will change is the little tick marks will appear around the crosshairs indicating the LMC is now on.

At this point, if you apply a little pressure to the left to start slewing the TADS to the left, it will respond as such and if you wanted it to keep tracking that tree that passed through your crosshairs, you would need to keep applying pressure left until the slew rate increased to the point it appeared stabilized over the piece of terrain you wanted to keep within the crosshairs as it passed by out the left side. That is what should happen when enabling the LMC while in forward flight.

As for how the TSE is making calculations before or after the laser is being fired, this is something I'll have to do more testing with since I've been focused on other stuff recently. There is a lot of calculations and math that goes into this stuff, and the dev team have obviously been crunching a lot of numbers to get this to where it's at so far.

[Floyd1212]

Thanks for this detailed explanation.  That makes a lot of sense how you describe it should be working. 

I think what we are getting in DCS is still on the generous side with how much assist it provides.  I'll bite my tongue for now, and be happy until ED has corrected the behavior, at which point I think it will be more difficult to use effectively.

[Raptor9]

8 hours ago, Floyd1212 said:

I think what we are getting in DCS is still on the generous side with how much assist it provides.  I'll bite my tongue for now, and be happy until ED has corrected the behavior, at which point I think it will be more difficult to use effectively.

Don't misunderstand, I'm not saying don't provide feedback. Please do.

I'm a DCS player too, so I want this module to be fun as well as authentic (within what is possible given sensitivity reasons of course).

[tech_op2000]

@Floyd1212 So, I did a little testing on this after watching your video. Here are my observations:

The first time you engaged LMC, your range was 742 meters. Activating LMC at this point causes the LMC to attempt to keep an object stationary at 742 meters from the helicopter. Because the terrain is much farther away, it appears to be moving forward relative to your reticle because of parallax. Or to look at it the other way, your reticle looks to be moving backwards. In fact, your reticle is actually now attempting to stay stationary on a point 742 meters away from you.

When you lase and then stop lasing, the range is updated to the distance to the tree. Now if you press LMC, it attempts to remain stationary on a point in space the same distance as the tree. 

When you continue lasing and engage LMC, it initiates LMC without attempting to keep a stationary point.

(It is important to note that it isn't actually keeping a point in space, it is just initiating a slew of the TADS that would keep the reticle stationary relative to a point in space at that distance.) 

In the previous update to the apache, initiating LMC with the laser firing acted the same as initiating LMC with it off. In this update they seem to have changed this behavior. 

Now:
-Initiating LMC with a set range and no active lase attempts to stabilize at that range. 
-Initiating LMC with an active lase activates LMC without attempting to stabilize at a set range.

I don't know whether this is intended or not but it is interesting. Maybe the experts could weigh in on this behavior.

Edited June 24, 2022 by tech_op2000

[Piker]

tech_op2000, thanks for the explanation, I was thinking the LMC was broken again with the new behavior.