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Uncommanded Rolling


stanknic

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Been a bit since I used the AH64, and the first thing I noticed is that it feels really unstable in straight flight. The aircraft rolls from side to side without input and if left uncorrected leads to an inversion and/or loss of control. I have the control input screen up and I can confirm no inputs are coming from my controllers or the SAS it seems.

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  • 4 weeks later...

you guys using the pedals?

Are you chasing the ball?

Is your ball within the centred lines in the bottom of the IHADDS?

It is very important to chase the ball in the Apache, the high set tail rotor creates a massive rotational force around the low slung tail boom (attached to the main body of the airframe). Due to the massive rotational force created by the tail rotor..... the tail boom will drag the entire airframe into a roll if your trim is out of line..... you guys get this right? 

A pedal adjustment rolls the entire airframe, but not in the direction you think!!!

If the Apache ball is left of centre in your IHADDS, you push left pedal and balance the ball centre on IHADDS...... do not think....... DO IT!

Chase the F&^$ing ball!

It upsets me that that ED have gone through so much trouble to create perfection but there is so much imperfection at home!


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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@Rogue Trooper Try this:

Cruise at 130 knots at 500 ft with the ball centered in aerodynamic trim.  Now drop to 200 ft by pitching the nose down into a dive.  Notice how the helo will roll left?  That is what S. Low is referring to.

You can counter it with some right stick when you push forward, so maybe like 1 o'clock, but the consensus is that it doesn't feel right.  WIP.

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Ok got it.

a clean dive at max speed.... correct?

does the ball move in the dive?

We are talking maximum speed and at the edge of the airframes max velocity of 240 Km/s.... yes?


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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"the high set tail rotor creates a massive rotational force around the low slung tail boom"

Not quite.  Don't get me wrong...  I'm not saying it creates no roll force.

It creates a force that causes the airframe to rotate around the CM of the whole airframe and is affected appropriately by the fairly significant gyroscopes both in and on the whole package.

It does not attempt to rotate around the tail boom itself.  Forces don't react like that unless you build the tailboom out of wet noodles, but then you effectively just have two objects with their own CM's and we're well beyond the point now.  The tailboom may indeed twist a small bit...  but that's not because the tail rotor imparts a force that rotates "around it".  It imparts a force in a direction and the reacted motion is defined by the forces relative location compared to the CM.

It will produce yaw force relative to the tail rotor's distance from the CM, and roll force relative to the tail rotor's height from the CM...

The shape and location of the tail boom have nothing to do with this aside from that they'll slightly change the location of the CM.

Nvidia RTX3080 (HP Reverb), AMD 3800x

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But I have to admit.

I am well behind the curve with the Apache and Hind, both of them I "feel" are the best modelled helicopters in DCS,  but work keeps me away from testing them and pushing them to their limits.

With helicopters there are fundamental truths, an adherence to the physical rules of life, a truth to mathematics and physics. And whilst I have probably 50 hours in the Apache, I feel nothing of what is discussed in forums about its stability. NOTHING.  as of 07/07/22 she is very nice indeed.

perhaps I am a better pilot.

perhaps I have better controllers

perhaps flying choppers since 2013 in DCS gave me an advantage, but to me the Apache is lovely.

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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It is not twist of the tail boom M1 combat, I have not gone into that much detail yet.

It is 2 very distinct forces moving in opposing directions.

1) is the tail rotor pushing or doing nothing at the high end of the tail fin connected to the tail boom.... (this depends on the pedal position).

2) is the resisting force, 9 tons of airframe inertia that is located point force in the tail end and connects at the low end of the tail fin.

There is no twist in the discussion yet..... just two massive rotational forces.

There is only rotation around the tail boom. There is a massive force multiplayer in the distance from the very base of the tail fin (point connect tail boom) and the tail rotor ( point connect top of tail fin).

There is no discussion here. There is strong rotation around that high tail..... it is fundamental physics. 

IF you drop your collective to zero and do not adjust your pedals to suit, then your governor will ensure a massive rolling force through the tail rotor.

 


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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  • ED Team

This has already been identified to be an inaccurate behavior of the flight model.

It has nothing to do with the trim ball position. If you push forward on the cyclic at higher airspeeds, there should not be an aggressive left rolling motion as is currently in the game.

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Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

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above what speeds?

 

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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Higher speeds or any speed?????

the velocity definition is vague.

for sure I do not see it in lower velocities up to 130 KM/h

perhaps I am just happily trimming it out without noticing!

 


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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  • ED Team
1 minute ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Higher speeds or any speed?????

At any speed. The DCS AH-64D should not be doing what it is doing when exposed to the conditions described in the 2nd post in this thread.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

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on my way to second thread.

huh.

you see it or feel it Raptor9?

I see nothing like this.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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I read a book about chopper test pilots once.

the main question for a company is what is the test pilot describing as hard and what does he mean by easy.

To what does he describe as impossible airframes to fly in his career..... and more importantly, is that chopper still hard to fly once the test pilot had 200 hours on the type?

in the wonderful world of choppers what is hard and what is easy when developing choppers?

 

I am waiting for an answer mind.

you see it or feel it Raptor9?


Edited by Rogue Trooper

HP G2 Reverb, Windows 10 VR settings: IPD is 64.5mm, High image quality, G2 reset to 60Hz refresh rate as standard. OpenXR user, Open XR tool kit disabled. Open XR was a massive upgrade for me.

DCS: Pixel Density 1.0, Forced IPD at 55 (perceived world size), 0 X MSAA, 0 X SSAA. My real IPD is 64.5mm. Prescription VROptition lenses installed. VR Driver system: I9-9900KS 5Ghz CPU. XI Hero motherboard and RTX 3090 graphics card, 64 gigs Ram, No OC at the mo. MT user  (2 - 5 fps gain). DCS run at 60Hz.

Vaicom user. Thrustmaster warthog user. MFG pedals with damper upgrade.... and what an upgrade! Total controls Apache MPDs set to virtual Reality height with brail enhancements to ensure 100% button activation in VR.. Simshaker Jet Pro vibration seat.. Uses data from DCS not sound.... you know when you are dropping into VRS with this bad boy.

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is this left rolling expected behavior of a gyroscope? Hold a bike wheel above your head with your left hand and spin it by flicking your right hand forward on the spokes of the right side. Try to tilt it forward-you can't-it rolls to the left.

4930K @ 4.5, 32g ram, TitanPascal

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  • ED Team
Just now, skypickle said:

is this left rolling expected behavior of a gyroscope? Hold a bike wheel above your head with your left hand and spin it by flicking your right hand forward on the spokes of the right side. Try to tilt it forward-you can't-it rolls to the left.

Gyroscopic precession is indeed a thing in rotary-winged helicopters, but this is not the issue.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.
DCS Rotor-Head

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3 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Ok got it.

a clean dive at max speed.... correct?

does the ball move in the dive?

We are talking maximum speed and at the edge of the airframes max velocity of 240 Km/s.... yes?

This isn't the max velocity of the airframe, but yes, 240 Km/s is a good speed to experience the behavior.  I'm sure you are a fantastic DCS helo pilot, but I expect you will experience the same phenomenon that others are describing.

Go ahead and perform the test as suggested, with the controls indicator up, and post a video so we can discuss it together.

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  • ED Team

Hi all, 

this is already reported and will be addressed by the team as we review the flight model during early access. 

thanks

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