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The Viper lost its snap !


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No it hasn’t I tried it for a brief second or 2 and said nope still the same.

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Start Date April 2020 

 

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Am 16.6.2022 um 06:19 schrieb SCPanda:

I have also experienced the same issue.

Before the FLCS update, the Viper rolls slower and was less responsive (which means you need more roll axis input to achieve a high roll rate), but it was very snappy. When you wanted to stop the roll, you let go of the stick and the jet would stop rolling immediately, you could also witness the flaperon immediately deflecting to counter the inertia to stop the roll, which made the Viper really snappy and easy to perform a 4 point roll. 

After the recent FLCS update, the Viper is indeed more responsive and rolls quicker, which I really enjoy, but it lost its snap on the roll axis. Now, when you roll and want to stop the roll by letting go of the stick, the jet will over-roll a lot and it just takes too long to stop the roll and the FLCS isn't doing a good job to counter the roll inertia as well as before. In other words, it's not as snappy as before. The FLCS response when you want to stop the roll feels quite lazy. 

All of my feedback written above is for a clean Viper setup with no external loads or pylons, and I haven't changed my stick setup. FYI, I also use a FSSB R3L but my friends using a TM Warthog also shared the same feedback as mine. So I don't think this issue is due to user input but the WIP DFLCS itself. However, since I have never flown a real Viper, I wouldn't know if its current behavior is realistic or not. Whether this issue is a bug or not, I don't know, but I did like the snap it had before (just the snap, not the slow roll rate and lack of responsiveness it had before). Just sharing my feedback. That's all. 

Edit: I see ED marked this thread as "Cannot reproduce and missing track file." But honestly, I don't think a track file will really show the issue. It's probably better to do a side by side comparison of the old FLCS vs the new FLCS by using the stable and OB version on this issue. Particularly, observe the time it takes to stop and roll and how flaperon reacts when letting go of the stick. 

The FM is good, but something struck me as odd, then I found the topic here, which describes the problem exactly👍

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I'm unable to view this .trk download. I'll figure it out and get back to you. 

Thanks !

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It seems that way to me also.

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It just doesn’t feel right with the R3L but amazing with the Virpil CM2 center stick.

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This video shows a 4-point roll with a HUD footage as well as from a ground viewpoint. You can try matching the parameters in the video and see if the same level of snappiness can be achieved: (from 6:24)

 

 


Edited by DummyCatz
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Bump left stop bump left stop bump left stop bump left stop. With the pressure stick the jet should stop in the center and should not move and you shouldnt have bump it In the opposite direction to stop the roll. It’s like there is no more damper when snapping a roll.

 

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I think I’m okay with it after a retune now. 

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Another video with that viper snap 1/4 roll.

 

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As tagged, Unable to reproduce. But will adapt.


Edited by Burt

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On 6/24/2022 at 2:47 PM, darkman222 said:

The viper starts to feel like ED took the "wobbling" part of the F18 flight model and brought it over to the viper.

 

On 6/24/2022 at 7:30 PM, Burt said:

It seems that way to me also.

I feel the same.

On 6/23/2022 at 6:39 PM, darkman222 said:

New patch has been rolled out. How is it? Has it been addressed? I can't try for myself in the next days unfortunately.

Unfortunately, no change for the issue described in this topic. FLCS response feels very wobbly. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Interestingly, a couple of years ago someone complained about how quickly the roll stopped and the post was marked [CORRECT AS IS]  So, the fact that that's obviously been changed recently means it must be incorrect as is, right?

 

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On 7/15/2022 at 1:51 AM, Invisibull said:

Interestingly, a couple of years ago someone complained about how quickly the roll stopped and the post was marked [CORRECT AS IS]  So, the fact that that's obviously been changed recently means it must be incorrect as is, right?

 

Interesting indeed. 

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IIRC (I have to search for the video) - RL pilots give a quick counter stick input to stop a roll. Which from the outside looks like a flat stop. Before the update you could just let go of the stick (or center it) to stop any roll movement instantaneous. Now you have to apply well dosed counter stick - as it should be.

Edit: Can't find a video atm. So disregard this as an opinion, if you wish.


Edited by Hiob

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9 hours ago, Hiob said:

IIRC (I have to search for the video) - RL pilots give a quick counter stick input to stop a roll.

I remember an interview with an F-16 pilot who said that the one difficulty he had transitioning to the Viper's side stick arrangement was learning not to do that. You don't even have to bring the stick back to center, you just let go and it stops. FLCS should cancel out any roll inertia. 

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Letting go allows the stick to center... on a Distance from 0 Control, a Pressure control, letting go removes the pressure.

The Stick in the F-16 is pressure driven, there's hardly any play in it at all, so letting go is return to center.

At which point the FCS should take it as "Stop roll" and automatically compute the control surfaces to do so.

Most Desktop HOTAS, use distance from 0 Axes (using MAGs or POTs) instead of pressure.
So the let go stick return to 0 on axis time depends on travel and springs,
vs a Pressure Force Sensor, the let go pressure return to 0 is nearly instantaneous. 

I'll have to give this some test runs, but it would seem if you want to quickly stop the roll with a distance from 0 stick, you'd have to center it quickly.
There shouldn't be any countering done by the user, the FCS should do that based on 0 roll, but a lot of users have the muscle memory to do so.

If you look up say Blue Angels Cockpit Videos, they counter to stop in the Legacy/super hornets, 
The Thunderbirds they simply squeeze pull the stick to apply Pressure then release, there's no counter movements, the FCS does them automatically

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25 minutes ago, SkateZilla said:

Letting go allows the stick to center... on a Distance from 0 Control, a Pressure control, letting go removes the pressure.

The Stick in the F-16 is pressure driven, there's hardly any play in it at all, so letting go is return to center.

At which point the FCS should take it as "Stop roll" and automatically compute the control surfaces to do so.

Most Desktop HOTAS, use distance from 0 Axes (using MAGs or POTs) instead of pressure.
So the let go stick return to 0 on axis time depends on travel and springs,
vs a Pressure Force Sensor, the let go pressure return to 0 is nearly instantaneous. 

I'll have to give this some test runs, but it would seem if you want to quickly stop the roll with a distance from 0 stick, you'd have to center it quickly.
There shouldn't be any countering done by the user, the FCS should do that based on 0 roll, but a lot of users have the muscle memory to do so.

If you look up say Blue Angels Cockpit Videos, they counter to stop in the Legacy/super hornets, 
The Thunderbirds they simply squeeze pull the stick to apply Pressure then release, there's no counter movements, the FCS does them automatically

Great explanation.

 

I also completely agree on the capability offered by a force-sensing stick. I recently purchased the RealSimulator FSSB R3L and I absolutely love it with the DCS Viper. It's incredibly agile and athletic now after the recent FM and FLCS updates. I'm a big fan of ED's recent work with the Viper. 

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  • Wags changed the title to No Roll Inertia

I don't post often, but I felt that I should, because I really can't understand. This completly contradicts what you (ED) stated in 2019 when you confirmed that there was no roll inertia (what IMO is confirmed with cockpit footage of demo pilots). Now after the FM update there is plenty of roll inertia. And now you say that the current behaviour "feels" correct. What is that based on because you always say you work with data and not on how it "feels"?
Like I said, there are plenty of cockpit videos that shows there is no roll inertia when doing 1/4 rolls. (This topic is also being discussed in another post with links to multiple cockpit videos of demo pilots doing 1/4 rolls). 

 

Can you please shed some light on what made the team now say it is correct as is?
I appreciate ED's striving for constant improvements in getting the FM as realistic as possible, but to me it feels you are cutting a corner here.

(FWIW, I'm also a FSSB user.)

 

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There is an update in that other post. Now the current "as is" FM behaviour is considered correct although it's quite the opposite of what was initially considered correct. I hope ED sheds some light on how they came to that new conclusion, because it baffles me.

 

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I appreciate the quick response.
When I release the pressure on my FSSB stick the roll doesn't immediately stop. It's not that the roll drags on forever, but It defenitly doesn't behave like it used to before the FM update and it doesn't correspond to what I see in those cockpit videos.

If I want to do 1/4 rolls I now have to counter them with opposite pressure, what to my knownledge shouldn't be necessary with a FSS stick.

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