unable to reproduce The Viper lost its snap !

[NineLine]

Ok, let me ask around on our team to make sure its being checked with a FSSB as well. Thanks!

[NineLine]

1 hour ago, Valk said:

I appreciate the quick response.
When I release the pressure on my FSSB stick the roll doesn't immediately stop. It's not that the roll drags on forever, but It defenitly doesn't behave like it used to before the FM update and it doesn't correspond to what I see in those cockpit videos.

If I want to do 1/4 rolls I now have to counter them with opposite pressure, what to my knownledge shouldn't be necessary with a FSS stick.

Team tested with FSSB, could you make a track with the control display showing and maybe we can see something there?

[Burt]

Go to 8:40 

in the R3L and probably the real Viper as I have seen many videos on the 4 point 1/4 roll when you roll left or right the jet should snap to attention to zero when no pressure is applied. Im glad it’s not just me about this slight issue. Love the Viper ! 
 

Thanks
 

 

 

[Star57]

I did some testing using a regular stick (Virpil WarBRD base), using a deadzone of 22 to ensure accuracy when returning to center.
The following track shows roll inertia after return to center position, control display is visible in the track.

viperrollinertia.trk

[SCPanda]

On 7/25/2022 at 1:53 AM, SkateZilla said:

Letting go allows the stick to center... on a Distance from 0 Control, a Pressure control, letting go removes the pressure.

The Stick in the F-16 is pressure driven, there's hardly any play in it at all, so letting go is return to center.

At which point the FCS should take it as "Stop roll" and automatically compute the control surfaces to do so.

Most Desktop HOTAS, use distance from 0 Axes (using MAGs or POTs) instead of pressure.
So the let go stick return to 0 on axis time depends on travel and springs,
vs a Pressure Force Sensor, the let go pressure return to 0 is nearly instantaneous. 

I'll have to give this some test runs, but it would seem if you want to quickly stop the roll with a distance from 0 stick, you'd have to center it quickly.
There shouldn't be any countering done by the user, the FCS should do that based on 0 roll, but a lot of users have the muscle memory to do so.

If you look up say Blue Angels Cockpit Videos, they counter to stop in the Legacy/super hornets, 
The Thunderbirds they simply squeeze pull the stick to apply Pressure then release, there's no counter movements, the FCS does them automatically

I have FSSB R3L which is force sensing like the real Viper stick. I still feel VERY strong roll inertia after the FLCS update. Before the FLCS update, with my FSSB, the jet stop the roll immediately after I let go (putting the pressure off) of my stick. 

Edited July 26, 2022 by SCPanda

[SCPanda]

6 hours ago, Valk said:

There is an update in that other post. Now the current "as is" FM behaviour is considered correct although it's quite the opposite of what was initially considered correct. I hope ED sheds some light on how they came to that new conclusion, because it baffles me.

 

Thx. I see they are at least looking into this. Nineline is asking for a track. I will see if I have time to make one using my FSSB after I got back home from work today. 

BTW, just a side note, have you tried flying the Mirage 2000 with FSSB? I know it's a different jet and it doesn't even use force sensing stick IRL, but that jet just stops the roll so fast when you let go the stick. Mirage 2000 feels more like what Viper used to be before the FLCS update. 

[Invisibull]

9 hours ago, SCPanda said:

I have FSSB R3L which is force sensing like the real Viper stick. I still feel VERY strong roll inertia after the FLCS update. Before the FLCS update, with my FSSB, the jet stop the roll immediately after I let go (putting the pressure off) of my stick. 

 

Same here.  I don't understand how ED can say "Correct as is" in 2019 with no roll inertia, but now say the same thing with lots of roll inertia?  It defies logic. 

 

 

[Hiob]

32 minutes ago, Invisibull said:

It defies logic.

 

Only if you see it as an absolute statement, instead of "...to our best current knowledge". From the nature of their business, I would assume that they always operate with incomplete and/or uncertain data and have to fill in blanks.

Personally, I choose to give them the benefit of doubt. It's up to you, how you live with it.

[NineLine]

2 hours ago, Invisibull said:

Same here.  I don't understand how ED can say "Correct as is" in 2019 with no roll inertia, but now say the same thing with lots of roll inertia?  It defies logic. 

 

 

Just to be clear, there should not be any inertia, and when I test in OB, I see none. 

Please provide a track with your control display up and we can try and take a look, all other commentary is not helping.

[NineLine]

13 hours ago, Star57 said:

I did some testing using a regular stick (Virpil WarBRD base), using a deadzone of 22 to ensure accuracy when returning to center.
The following track shows roll inertia after return to center position, control display is visible in the track.

viperrollinertia.trk 706.07 kB · 1 download

I see it in your track, but when I take control of your track and move myself, it is gone. Might be a control issue, but not sure what or why right now.

[Valk]

Here are my track files. I think the FSSB stick definitetly has something to do with. I've tried doing 1/4 rolls with my old thrustmaster warthog base and the roll inertia feels less pronounced. But like SC Panda said in the other post, the Mirage 2000 feels more like what Viper used to be before the FM update (see third track file).

Thank you for looking in to this and  I hope the team can sort it out.

 

Viper quarter rolls with FSSB.trk Viper quarter rolls with TM warthog base.trk Mirage 2K quarter rolls with FSSB.trk

[Valk]

Yes, I've tried the M2k and you are right. It behaves more like the pre-FM updatet Viper. 
Also, thanks for uploading your track files.
Hope ED can sort it out, now they see that there are multiple people experiencing the same problem

[NineLine]

I know our SME is going to have a look as well, and we do have some more FM tweaks coming. Wags did test with a FSSB stick and sees no issue, but he was testing on an internal build, so possible its fixed internally. 

[AlexCaboose]

FSSB here as well and there is definitely roll inertia.

[Ephedrin]

A couple of years ago I was using a 3rd party anti virus software and I always had slightly laggy control in and outputs in Prepar3d. I did‘t use DCS at that time. I searched for help in various customer forums and one developer told me he had had the same problem bzt was able to track it down to his antivirus software. The AV was checking everything (!) that was handled in Win7 back then and so it also slowed down the signals coming from my yoke. Could this be something similar? 

[Star57]

58 minutes ago, Ephedrin said:

 

Extremely unlikely, seeing as the patch prior to the FLCS update with corrected roll rate had the correct roll response with no inertia.

[Invisibull]

3 hours ago, NineLine said:

I know our SME is going to have a look as well, and we do have some more FM tweaks coming. Wags did test with a FSSB stick and sees no issue, but he was testing on an internal build, so possible its fixed internally. 

If Wags is saying that, then I have faith that it's already fixed.  thx.

[Blaze1]

SEMPER VIPER! - Code One Magazine

"This self-correcting feature is why you see the horizontal stabilizer moving around so much when the airplane is taxiing. The flight control system is not getting any input from you, but is feeling the aircraft move as you taxi across all the bumps on the taxi route. So what you see is the flight control system trying to smooth out the taxiway. This is also why you don’t have to put in any check command to stop the roll rate as you try to do any number of precision point rolls.

One minor drawback of the self-checking feature shows up in what has been described as roll ratcheting. You will recall earlier that I talked about how different the flight control system is, compared to what you’ve been using. The ability to do smooth rolls requires some concentration on your part until you become completely familiar with this different airplane. What’s happening is that you’re putting in some amount of roll command. Since the roll acceleration of the F-16 is so good, you make the subconscious decision that if you’re rolling this fast and this quick then in a couple of seconds you will be rolling at nine million rpm.

The natural tendency is to want to slow the roll rate. With a conventional flight control system, we simply decrease the amount of stick deflection. In order to accomplish this, we relax pressure on the stick and allow the self-centering forces to move the stick closer to center (i.e., less aileron deflection), thus slowing the roll rate to what we want; then apply sufficient pressure to keep the stick at the new position. This relaxing of the pressure will normally go to zero momentarily, and with the F-16 this is sufficient for the self-checking feature to stop the roll rate completely. (Remember — you don’t have direct control over the amount or direction of the control surface deflection.) The roll rate deceleration is ALSO rapid, so your body and hand tend to couple with the aircraft motion and probably make stick inputs that weren’t intended.

The end result is some pretty sloppy rolls until we get used to the system. What you need to do is (1) learn to adjust the roll rate with subtle pressure changes to the stick and (2) get away from the stick position cues you’ve been used to using. Once you can get yourself tuned to using finite pressure changes to control the roll rate, you’ll be able to make smooth roll inputs. This is so despite a force-per-roll-rate slope that isn’t constant. There are two distinct changes in the slope of the curve. This is to make sure that the airplane isn’t too sensitive for small inputs, and that the force required for max inputs is not too high. Those devilish engineers also used two different roll time constants for small and large roll inputs. All this is nice to know, but if you simply pay attention to the amount of force you’re using on the stick, you’ll be able to do very nice rolls with the F-16.

By now I’m sure all of you are asking why it’s necessary to use such a markedly different flight control system. Well this self-checking feature is really one of the main reasons this flight control system is in the F-16. It allows an aircraft design that uses new and different aerodynamic principles."

[Invisibull]

2 hours ago, Blaze1 said:

 This relaxing of the pressure will normally go to zero momentarily, and with the F-16 this is sufficient for the self-checking feature to stop the roll rate completely. (Remember — you don’t have direct control over the amount or direction of the control surface deflection.) The roll rate deceleration is ALSO rapid, so your body and hand tend to couple with the aircraft motion and probably make stick inputs that weren’t intended.

This is exactly how it was with my FSSB until a couple of updates ago.  I know it might sound a bit daft, but I really miss that aspect of flying.  

[AlexCaboose]

@NineLine

 

https://i.gyazo.com/ee8e3ca5cae7b0009a6e16ba49bd9a48.mp4

Track and video of the RS raw output.

Viper Roll Inertia FSSB.trk

[NineLine]

5 hours ago, Blaze1 said:

SEMPER VIPER! - Code One Magazine

"This self-correcting feature is why you see the horizontal stabilizer moving around so much when the airplane is taxiing. The flight control system is not getting any input from you, but is feeling the aircraft move as you taxi across all the bumps on the taxi route. So what you see is the flight control system trying to smooth out the taxiway. This is also why you don’t have to put in any check command to stop the roll rate as you try to do any number of precision point rolls.

One minor drawback of the self-checking feature shows up in what has been described as roll ratcheting. You will recall earlier that I talked about how different the flight control system is, compared to what you’ve been using. The ability to do smooth rolls requires some concentration on your part until you become completely familiar with this different airplane. What’s happening is that you’re putting in some amount of roll command. Since the roll acceleration of the F-16 is so good, you make the subconscious decision that if you’re rolling this fast and this quick then in a couple of seconds you will be rolling at nine million rpm.

The natural tendency is to want to slow the roll rate. With a conventional flight control system, we simply decrease the amount of stick deflection. In order to accomplish this, we relax pressure on the stick and allow the self-centering forces to move the stick closer to center (i.e., less aileron deflection), thus slowing the roll rate to what we want; then apply sufficient pressure to keep the stick at the new position. This relaxing of the pressure will normally go to zero momentarily, and with the F-16 this is sufficient for the self-checking feature to stop the roll rate completely. (Remember — you don’t have direct control over the amount or direction of the control surface deflection.) The roll rate deceleration is ALSO rapid, so your body and hand tend to couple with the aircraft motion and probably make stick inputs that weren’t intended.

The end result is some pretty sloppy rolls until we get used to the system. What you need to do is (1) learn to adjust the roll rate with subtle pressure changes to the stick and (2) get away from the stick position cues you’ve been used to using. Once you can get yourself tuned to using finite pressure changes to control the roll rate, you’ll be able to make smooth roll inputs. This is so despite a force-per-roll-rate slope that isn’t constant. There are two distinct changes in the slope of the curve. This is to make sure that the airplane isn’t too sensitive for small inputs, and that the force required for max inputs is not too high. Those devilish engineers also used two different roll time constants for small and large roll inputs. All this is nice to know, but if you simply pay attention to the amount of force you’re using on the stick, you’ll be able to do very nice rolls with the F-16.

By now I’m sure all of you are asking why it’s necessary to use such a markedly different flight control system. Well this self-checking feature is really one of the main reasons this flight control system is in the F-16. It allows an aircraft design that uses new and different aerodynamic principles."

Its not a matter of knowing what it is and does, its more of a matter of replicating, which I have done yesterday with some of your tracks, and noted it seems worse, at least for me, with +/- curve. The SME is going to review and I have passed everything to the team, so I will let you guys know.

Thanks for all that submitted tracks!

[Burt]

Fantastic !

[Invisibull]

Today's update seems to have improved this issue. 

[NineLine]

14 minutes ago, Invisibull said:

Today's update seems to have improved this issue. 

That's great to hear, but I don't think any changes were made yet, something might have slipped in though.

[Invisibull]

On 7/26/2022 at 2:01 PM, NineLine said:

I know our SME is going to have a look as well, and we do have some more FM tweaks coming. Wags did test with a FSSB stick and sees no issue, but he was testing on an internal build, so possible its fixed internally. 

Did that internal build  not make it into today's update?  It def feels different to me.  Maybe a placebo effect.  I'm sure others will comment shortly.

 

UPDATE: Upon further testing, I guess it hasn't changed as much as I first thought. 

Edited July 28, 2022 by Invisibull