unable to reproduce The Viper lost its snap !

[Valk]

Yeah, there is still roll inertia.

[NineLine]

Hey guys, today Wags had Colonel Mike “T-DAY” Torrealday over to his house to go over the Viper, T-Day has over 4000 hours on most every F-16 block out there. 

You can see an interview with him here: 

Anyways, they used the current Open Beta version and reviewed the current roll inertia using a FSSB stick with the force settings set to roll of 8.13 lb and pitch of 11.65.

With these settings T-Day was very happy with the results and felt it was quite accurate. 

Thanks all. 

[fapador]

@NineLine Irrelevant with the topic, but can something be done about the nose drop when banking and knife edging? 

Also there is a small pitch down moment,  like a hesitation to rotate on takeoff, something I think should not be happening in a F-16 as they tend to pitch up not down on takeoff and therefore flcs corrects for that behavior but in dcs its like its overcorrecting and pitching the nose back down...

Edited July 28, 2022 by fapador

[NineLine]

17 minutes ago, fapador said:

@NineLine Irrelevant with the topic, but can something be done about the nose drop when banking and knife edging? 

Also there is a small pitch down moment,  like a hesitation to rotate on takeoff, something I think should not be happening in a F-16 as they tend to pitch up not down on takeoff and therefore flcs corrects for that behavior but in dcs its like its overcorrecting and pitching the nose back down...

 

Better to start your own thread, but maybe wait until the final FM changes are here, I don't have a solid timeline, but I believe sooner than later from the noise I am hearing. 

[SCPanda]

9 hours ago, NineLine said:

Hey guys, today Wags had Colonel Mike “T-DAY” Torrealday over to his house to go over the Viper, T-Day has over 4000 hours on most every F-16 block out there. 

You can see an interview with him here: 

Anyways, they used the current Open Beta version and reviewed the current roll inertia using a FSSB stick with the force settings set to roll of 8.13 lb and pitch of 11.65.

With these settings T-Day was very happy with the results and felt it was quite accurate. 

Thanks all. 

It's an interview with audio only and over 1 hour long....

And, how he feels is not a valid scientific proof that the FLCS behavior/roll inertia is accurate. He could just be nice to you ED guys or not providing serious evaluation of the FM and FLCS for DCS Viper. 

First, you told us there shouldn't be any roll inertia, and told us you tested the tracks and observed the roll inertia we talked about. Now, are you telling us the roll inertia we have in our DCS Viper is correct? Please don't take the lazy route and make this problem go away...

Edited July 29, 2022 by SCPanda

[BIGNEWY]

50 minutes ago, SCPanda said:

It's an interview with audio only and over 1 hour long....

And, how he feels is not a valid scientific proof that the FLCS behavior/roll inertia is accurate. He could just be nice to you ED guys or not providing serious evaluation of the FM and FLCS for DCS Viper. 

First, you told us there shouldn't be any roll inertia, and told us you tested the tracks and observed the roll inertia we talked about. Now, are you telling us the roll inertia we have in our DCS Viper is correct? Please don't take the lazy route and make this problem go away...

The interview is there to give you some context of who T-Day is, but you do not need to listen to it. 

We are happy with the inertia roll, a very experienced Viper pilot is also happy.

If you are not happy that is fine, we can not make everyone happy, but please dont call the team lazy, it is not constructive.

 

[SCPanda]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

The interview is there to give you some context of who T-Day is, but you do not need to listen to it. 

We are happy with the inertia roll, a very experienced Viper pilot is also happy.

If you are not happy that is fine, we can not make everyone happy, but please dont call the team lazy, it is not constructive.

 

It's not about who is happy or not. It's about making the module as realistic as possible. 

As you can see by reading the previous posts in this thread, you guys have tested with the internal build and said there's no roll inertia and said "Just to be clear, there should not be any inertia." Now you guys are saying the current roll inertia is correct, which is very confusing.

Regarding the interview, I apologize for calling the team lazy, but it just seems to me that by posting an youtube video (with only audio) is not a solid proof or an appropriate approach to show you have resolved the problem you have previously acknowledged. It's basically like: We saw the problem. But we had a former pilot flew it in DCS, now the problem is gone. 

Just to be clear, this thread was started way before the FLCS update when there was no roll inertia at all for the DCS Viper, which you marked it "correct-as-is." Now after the FLCS update, with heavy roll inertia introduced, you now are saying the roll inertia is correct? It feels like ED's position is basically: what we have in DCS is correct, and we are not just going to change it. 

[SCPanda]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:21 AM, Valk said:

Hope ED can sort it out, now they see that there are multiple people experiencing the same problem

Now they are saying the roll inertia is correct.... 

[BIGNEWY]

Over the years, what we know and have learned about the Viper handling has greatly changed. Recently, we adjusted the performance and handling quite a bit to improve this further, and this resulted in some changes to the how the FLCS handles inertia. We believe it is correct and have had a high-hour F-16C pilot review it.

 

[AlexCaboose]

17 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

Over the years, what we know and have learned about the Viper handling has greatly changed. Recently, we adjusted the performance and handling quite a bit to improve this further, and this resulted in some changes to the how the FLCS handles inertia. We believe it is correct and have had a high-hour F-16C pilot review it.

 

But what is it that you believe is correct as is? The live build that we are all using and bug reporting on, or your internal development build? This thread is clear-as-mud at this point.

[NineLine]

10 minutes ago, AlexCaboose said:

But what is it that you believe is correct as is? The live build that we are all using and bug reporting on, or your internal development build? This thread is clear-as-mud at this point.

T-day tested on Open Beta release with Wags as I stated in my post about it above. 

[skywalker22]

That video from few posts above is over 3yrs old. It makes no sence...

[Invisibull]

16 hours ago, NineLine said:

Anyways, they used the current Open Beta version and reviewed the current roll inertia using a FSSB stick with the force settings set to roll of 8.13 lb and pitch of 11.65.

With these settings T-Day was very happy with the results and felt it was quite accurate.

Frankly, when I compare the above hearsay (we certainly have no way of knowing exactly what "T-DAY" said and what the  context might have been) to the account from the Semper Viper! article, it's not even close which of the two should be more heavily weighted as a useful source to answer our inertial roll question.  Here's the relevant excerpt from that article:

Quote

With a conventional flight control system, we simply decrease the amount of stick deflection. In order to accomplish this, we relax pressure on the stick and allow the self-centering forces to move the stick closer to center (i.e., less aileron deflection), thus slowing the roll rate to what we want; then apply sufficient pressure to keep the stick at the new position. This relaxing of the pressure will normally go to zero momentarily, and with the F-16 this is sufficient for the self-checking feature to stop the roll rate completely. (Remember — you don’t have direct control over the amount or direction of the control surface deflection.) The roll rate deceleration is ALSO rapid, so your body and hand tend to couple with the aircraft motion and probably make stick inputs that weren’t intended.

Currently, nothing I can do with my FSSB stick  will "stop the roll rate completely" as described in the above article. Also, when I do try to stop the roll now, the response is anything but "rapid."  No disrespect is intended here, but I spent the last couple of years really enjoying how well I could stop the viper's roll on a dime and now I'm being told that that behavior was incorrect all along even though we have direct quotes from the horse's mouth verifying that it was perfectly fine in the roll regime (at least from a FSSB user's perspective) before the FM update a month or so ago. 

[NineLine]

Guys, I know it wasn't the answer you wanted, or felt it should be, but he is a trusted SME that Wags has worked with a lot. There are other aspects that will be improved on the Viper because of his input, but he was very happy and felt roll was very realistic. We cannot discount an SME because a few people don't like the answer, I'm sorry.

[Valk]

I don’t want to be disrespectful towards T-Day but there is a post where he apparently was happy with the at that moment current G-onset, but a year later the G-onset appeared to be too slow after all as it was improved (OB changelog 17/03/22). https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/changelog/openbeta/2.7.11.21408.1/#:~:text=DCS%3A F-16C,engine setting%2C etc.  

 

I’m no 4000  hours Viper pilot and I don’t know how it feels (which should be irrelevant anyway because data should be the driving factor) , but I see what I see in those demo pilot cockpit video’s, and that’s an instantaneous stop of the roll. No inertia, no wobbles. And that’s not what I expierence anymore since the FM and FLCS update.

I’m just hoping it won’t take another year before ED realizes that the roll inertia needs improving, because we know and deep down ED knows it as well that it isn’t correct now. It's just a question of not admitting it, IMO.

[arb65912]

Update should be coming up sooner than later so we will see after that. 

I wonder what time frame is sooner than later.  Not being sarcastic, just would like to know, that's all. 

[Star57]

On 7/26/2022 at 3:53 PM, NineLine said:

I see it in your track, but when I take control of your track and move myself, it is gone. Might be a control issue, but not sure what or why right now.

Given the recent developments, could we get some clarification on this, seeing as a difference in roll inertia has been observed between us for whatever reason?

Which roll inertia value has the SME deemed to be correct, the one as represented in my track or the one that you have perceived in your version of the game?

[NineLine]

12 minutes ago, Star57 said:

Given the recent developments, could we get some clarification on this, seeing as a difference in roll inertia has been observed between us for whatever reason?

Which roll inertia value has the SME deemed to be correct, the one as represented in my track or the one that you have perceived in your version of the game?

I have said twice now that he tested in Open Beta release.

 

27 minutes ago, Valk said:

I don’t want to be disrespectful towards T-Day but there is a post where he apparently was happy with the at that moment current G-onset, but a year later the G-onset appeared to be too slow after all as it was improved (OB changelog 17/03/22). https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/news/changelog/openbeta/2.7.11.21408.1/#:~:text=DCS%3A F-16C,engine setting%2C etc.  

 

I’m no 4000  hours Viper pilot and I don’t know how it feels (which should be irrelevant anyway because data should be the driving factor) , but I see what I see in those demo pilot cockpit video’s, and that’s an instantaneous stop of the roll. No inertia, no wobbles. And that’s not what I expierence anymore since the FM and FLCS update.

I’m just hoping it won’t take another year before ED realizes that the roll inertia needs improving, because we know and deep down ED knows it as well that it isn’t correct now. It's just a question of not admitting it, IMO.

As I stated, the best info we have is T-day's feedback, the roll is correct to that feedback at this time. We (ED) believe him and believe it is correct. 

[Burt]

Okay… that’s good enough for me. 
 

Edit: 
But there is a difference between “quit accurate and accurate. Between the two is the missing link. 
 

Thanks

Edited July 29, 2022 by Burt

[Star57]

38 minutes ago, NineLine said:

I have said twice now that he tested in Open Beta release.

In which case, for some reason there is a difference between roll inertia between the two of us, although we are both on the latest Open Beta, as you have stated.

I would like to point out that there is still an issue here, whether it may be due to some obscure reason or not, as I don't see why else we would have differing roll inertia between me recording a track and you taking control of that track.

[NineLine]

1 minute ago, Star57 said:

In which case, for some reason there is a difference between roll inertia between the two of us, although we are both on the latest Open Beta, as you have stated.

I would like to point out that there is still an issue here, whether it may be due to some obscure reason or not, as I don't see why else we would have differing roll inertia between me recording a track and you taking control of that track.

I am not saying this is the reason, or that everyone here is experiencing this, so no riots please, but controls, and adjustment to those controls can play a huge part. I dont have a FSSB (yet) but it sounds like that adds a whole other element to things. Again, not saying that is peoples issues, but T-Day and Wags did spend some time tuning his controls as stated in my post on this.

[Star57]

1 minute ago, NineLine said:

I am not saying this is the reason, or that everyone here is experiencing this, so no riots please, but controls, and adjustment to those controls can play a huge part. I dont have a FSSB (yet) but it sounds like that adds a whole other element to things. Again, not saying that is peoples issues, but T-Day and Wags did spend some time tuning his controls as stated in my post on this.

Just to clarify, I don't have an FSSB stick either, rather a normal Virpil WarBRD base which is not force sensing. My axis bindings for my stick (saturation, curves, deadzone) have not changed since the patch where roll inertia was behaving as expected (with no inertia upon stick recenter), other than setting a deadzone of 22 in roll for the express purpose of recording that track, to ensure that releasing the stick returned the stick to the center position practically instantly.

[DummyCatz]

@F16FLCS-SMEI think this is where the Slow In Fast Out circuit in the roll command module comes into play, as the absolute roll rate command increases slower than it decreases. This provides rather instant stopping upon releasing the stick.

Another post about the Slow In Fast Out circuit:

 

Edited July 30, 2022 by DummyCatz

[fapador]

Well. As I have personally tried 2years ago Lockheed's Martin very  own f-16 simulator. I have to say that the Roll behavior  is  overall better  now than before as it matches the experience I had better from what my memory serves.

While previously roll stopped instataneously when letting go of stick and that might be considered realistic judging by cockpit  videos... the roll rate was extremely sluggish and it was nearly impossible to pull some maneuvers requiring fast levelling of  wings.

Also I remember the LM's  simulator distinctevely depicting a high roll inertia almost like what we currently have in dcs, so its either correct as is now or possibly both dcs and Lockheed Martin simulator are wrong and not accurate enough. 

Edited July 31, 2022 by fapador

[SCPanda]

On 7/29/2022 at 11:45 PM, NineLine said:

As I stated, the best info we have is T-day's feedback, the roll is correct to that feedback at this time. We (ED) believe him and believe it is correct. 

Well that's clearly not enough. So you guys just had T-day flew it, a former F-16 pilot indeed, but how the jet feels in the real cockpit is way different than how the jet "feel" in a desktop sim, unless you guys built a full motion sim for him to replicate the exact feel he had in the real jet, which I don't think you did. And, without researching FLCS documents, reaching out to multiple sources, and clearly ignoring real-life cockpit videos, you just jumped to the conclusion. I am sorry I just can't believe ED's thoughts on this is correct. If that's your apporach to this, anyone could have asked a real pilot and build a FLCS in any sim and say that's how the real F-16 handles.