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Is there any reason to use the aim 7 sparrow over the aim 54 Phoenix in the F-14?


Hilding24

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As I understand it the Aim54 was primarily designed to knock down bombers aswell as have long range.  So it's BIG, very expensive, and as a side effect of it's size, probably less manoeuvrable than the Sparrow.

In addition, as the Sparrow is guided by the firing aircraft to it's target, it's a LOT safer to shoot into close combat where you might have a chance to shoot down a friendly.

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The AIM-7 is cheaper, so realistically if it will get the job done it gets taken over the AIM-54.

The Sparrow is also less weight and drag on your airframe, making you more maneuverable.

In flight the Sparrow is mostly a downgrade, but it's less draggy than the Phoenix which might help it to catch maneuvering targets at specific ranges. The AIM-54 relies on thin air at altitude to accelerate, without this it's a lot less potent.

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The AIM-7 is considered a medium range missle and has an effective range of about 12 miles. 

So it would make sense to use it in a distance too far for a sidewinder, but too short for a phoenix, because as you would've guessed from it's sheer size, the phoenix is NOT a dogfight missle. However when used correctly, the AIM-7 can perform really well in a close range engagement, but also don't expect a godly performace, because the sparrows were a bit unreliable at the same time. 

It is just a personal preference, but a lot of times I prefer flying with 6 AIM-7's than 6 phoenixes.

In conclusion: It has a better performace within 12 miles, and pull more G's, but it's a semi-active radar homing missle, so keep you lock all the way till you hit your target.

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4 hours ago, Hilding24 said:

Hi,

I am thinking about buying the tomcat and is curious if there are any advantages that are big enough for you to use the aim 7 over the aim 54.

As i guess your question is meant to be in context of the game and not real life:

- The Phoenix is big and heavy, the more you carry, the more they will impact your performance;
- The Phoenix is fire and forget at ranges you would usually launch a killing Sparrow;
- The Phoenix is mush faster, longer ranged and has a longer burn time then the Sparrow.

With the above 3 in mind, one has to look at the costs and benefits when planning their loadout. An example, do you plan, expect or want to be ready to enter a merge during your mission? Then you want to have no more then 2 Phoenix missiles on you when you do. Which means if you had 6 to start with, you better got 4 of them launched before you start to turn and burn with the bandits. In such a scenario 4 or maybe only 2 Phoenixes may be preferred. 

Why taking Sparrows at all? While the Sparrow isn't as fast and long reached as a Phoenix, plus it requires support all the way in, it still covers a nice range between a very close range Sidewinder and not so very close range Phoenix. Also, the Sparrows are hardly a hinderance in a merge, so having 2 or 4 of them still around, might even be helpful. They after all have longer range then Sidewinders and are much more lethal. 

So what should you bring with you? That is entirely on what you want to do with what you have. If you are a dedicated "sheep herder" on a typical air-quake server, you might have no use for a Sparrow after all. At altitudes these folks like to hang around, your Sparrows will hardly hit anything past 5 miles, and supporting shots from that range will often get you killed in neutral scenarios. A phoenix fired at 10 miles on the other hand, is fire and forget, something that in the old era was called SPAMRAAM, because the AMRAAM was the only missile that could be used this way. So if air-quake is your think, knock yourself out and don't take Sparrows. Does that mean you should bring 6 Phoenixes with you? Most folk in this demographics did, i guess because they didn't feel like landing to rearm after 2 or 4 shots. It's up to you.

In a more serious environment however, with more structured missions and goals, the Sparrow can be a valuable tool for the reasons mentioned above. 

Hope this helps! Cheers and clear skies!  

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11 hours ago, Hilding24 said:

Hi,

I am thinking about buying the tomcat and is curious if there are any advantages that are big enough for you to use the aim 7 over the aim 54.

Without going too much into the details:

  • lighter, better when approaching WVR;
  • lower DI;
  • cheaper and more common, if you play a realistic campaign that takes ordnance into account;
  • it shouldn't be used vs fighters, if you follow a realistic scenario set in pre mid-80s.

That being said:

  • the 54 frees you from the necessity of guiding it within 10nm low TA;
  • moreover, the AIM-54 can be fired in PSTT, which is much better than TWS at the moment. Works like a charm within 20nm when targets have low TA. Therefore, they are not a heavy burden in a merge;
  • however, if the target bugs out and you are out of 54s, you may not get it. An AIM-7 is not as much of a burden in a merge, and can be useful in these occasions;
  • I also wonder how many Gs you can pull with 54s in station 1/8.

 

Lastly, a Tomcat with 6xAIM-54 looks ugly. Fight me 😛

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I quite like the sparrow. Up to the mid-to-late-eighties, it was the Tomcat's weapon of choice against fighters. The phoenix was reserved for bombers for a long time.

With the AIM-7s unter the belly, you can carry more fuel back to the boat, you're lighter and more maneuverable. In 2v1 scenarios, the sparrow can be really good for taking out bandit number two from 15 nm, after the bandit lead has been taken out by your phoenix. Sometimes, Tomcats only carried one phoenix, so you'd need an AIM-7 for the second shot.

It's also quite fun to fire the AIM-7 in boresight mode. You don't need an STT, but fly in direction of the target, of course. Good for shots "from the hip" 🙂

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On 6/12/2022 at 10:55 PM, Mr_sukebe said:

In addition, as the Sparrow is guided by the firing aircraft to it's target, it's a LOT safer to shoot into close combat where you might have a chance to shoot down a friendly.

DCS'ism. You should never consider a shot that can end up near any friendly. If the lock is kept (or in flood) the Sparrow could confuse targets same as active missile.

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On 6/13/2022 at 9:06 AM, Stratos said:

IIRC historically the Tomcats never carried the Phoenix while in Mediterranean deployments, maybe caused by the confined space?

I understood it more as being a very expensive and limited resource. A Phoenix In the missile magazine of a carrier is available when things go bad. A Phoenix you had to jett into the Med to make trap weight if you had to come back heavy on a routine daily patrol is gone for good.

The Navy wanted to preserve their AIM-54s for if things got hot. For basic Cold War patrolling/“Installing Freedom” Sidewinders and Sparrows were the preferred load-out. Especially with Visual ID requirements for RoE.


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12 hours ago, draconus said:

DCS'ism. You should never consider a shot that can end up near any friendly. If the lock is kept (or in flood) the Sparrow could confuse targets same as active missile.

I think this is a thing in DCS too, particularly in flood mode. With a lock, I don't know, but I did see a video from GS in which a MiG-21 shot down the Su-25 that GS was gunning for with an R-60 that was aimed at him. Either way, watch where you're shooting. 

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Depends. In air quake MP servers where most are flying in the mountain ranges, I feel the Phoenix becomes a liability and find myself usually going in with 4 Sparrows and 4 AIM-9s. The AIM-7 is ideal in the 5-10nm range. Flying solo in a server against opponents with SD-10s, and AMRAAMS is still a death wish though in this layout.

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7 minutes ago, Hilding24 said:

Does anyone know if the maneuverability advantage of the sparrow is big or just a small advantage? Will it make a difference most of the time?

Probably low down in the thick and reasonably close range when the 54 has trouble accelerating quickly. 

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12 hours ago, Hilding24 said:

Does anyone know if the maneuverability advantage of the sparrow is big or just a small advantage? Will it make a difference most of the time?

It is if you’re swinging wide on a lag pursuit or can take a shot on a cross over. Only use Phoenix up close when you have a good lead already set up. It’s active cone of sight is small and ACM up it will be active off the rail, so between pulling the trigger and the motor firing you can end up with it just grasping at sky.

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22 minutes ago, RustBelt said:

It is if you’re swinging wide on a lag pursuit or can take a shot on a cross over. Only use Phoenix up close when you have a good lead already set up. It’s active cone of sight is small and ACM up it will be active off the rail, so between pulling the trigger and the motor firing you can end up with it just grasping at sky.

This is where a fast PSTT lock via PAL or quick RIO fares better than just ACM up. It roughly tells the Phoenix where to look at and will head that way. 

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IRL; Sparrows were cheaper, less maintenance, lighter burn less fuel. 

Phoenixes were expensive. Forget the BS on the internet about them being less maneuverable etc. They were absolutely lethal. When the missile is closing in near Mach 5, it doesn't need to behave like sidewinder to make a kill. 

They were expensive to carry, expensive to carry back to the boat and needed maintenance to keep them reliable.

Hence they were reserved as silver bullets for fleet air defence. And silver bullets they were meant to be indeed.

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Its worth saying this. I have read that as the Tomcat community became more and more concerned about the range of Soviet Radar guided AAM's, they did move towards carrying a single phoenix for in the face shots. The logic being they would outrange whatever came at them with an R27. This would be the Mig29/Su27 threat.

They would I think have carried sparrows as well, but it illustrates some of the thinking. I would presume this is the same reason they were also looking at integrating the Aim120 with the Tomcat, before giving up. Its hard to see the requirement when they had the Phoenix already, struggling to justify its keep in the post fleet defence world in the 1990's.

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Without Real World limitations on budgets and cost, let alone maintenance trap weight, etc and you can just drop them if you need to, in most cases you'd be fine with 2-4 Phoenix and all Sidewinders on the gloves.  Don't want too many dragging you down but using them as big Spamraams has no real lost... at least when they're not borked like they appear to be currently which is something with ED's tinkering with the missile system IIRC.

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On 6/17/2022 at 4:08 PM, stuart666 said:

Its worth saying this. I have read that as the Tomcat community became more and more concerned about the range of Soviet Radar guided AAM's, they did move towards carrying a single phoenix for in the face shots. The logic being they would outrange whatever came at them with an R27. This would be the Mig29/Su27 threat.

They would I think have carried sparrows as well, but it illustrates some of the thinking. I would presume this is the same reason they were also looking at integrating the Aim120 with the Tomcat, before giving up. Its hard to see the requirement when they had the Phoenix already, struggling to justify its keep in the post fleet defence world in the 1990's.

To amplify this, according to an episode of Tomcast, there was a finite pool of money in upgrading the Tomcat. 

It was either go for the LANTIRN and PGM capability, or AIM-120 integration.

A bold decision was made to develop  LANTIRN and PGM capability. They reasoned that A. this was a capability the US Navy needed. And B. The Tomcat already had Fox 3 capability in the form of the Phoenix.

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