How did Tomcat crews merge while outnumbered and under Weapons Hold ROE?

[Istari6]

My buddy and I just played a user-created mission where we need to patrol the Persian Gulf around Oman.  The Iranians have been sending out their fighters to test the US Navy patrols, much like Libya did in the Gulf of Sidra events historically.  In this mission, we're told we're under Weapons Hold ROE until fired upon first.  

4 MiG-21s race up and close with us, yet we're under Weapons Hold ROE.  We turn to meet them, and as they close within a few nm, they launch a salvo of R-60M missiles.  We're given Weapons Free immediately, but we're already at knife-fight range with the MiG-21s and outnumbered 2:1.  My buddy goes down to an R-60 hit in the initial salvo, and I escape by plugging in burner and diving away to get some distance, then returned and started shooting down MiG-21s from range while an Alert 5 CAP came up to help.

Final score 4 Iranian MiGs splashed for 1 Tomcat lost, but it was frustrating for my buddy.  We were both left wondering how real Tomcat pilots dealt with aggressive merges like this in peacetime situations.  The opening scene of Top Gun is a 2-v-2 IIRC, where the Tomcats and "MiG-28s" could joust with each other and see which was better via getting STT locks (which freaks out Cougar).  But how do you deal with letting 4 MiGs close within WVR while they hold the ability to open fire at any moment if they get an advantage?  

In real life, I think the 2nd Gulf of Sidra incident (1989) saw the Tomcats going weapons free when the enemy aircraft kept closing with hostile intent within a certain range.  Is that more realistic?  

 

Edited June 17, 2022 by Istari6

[silverdevil]

not sure what the US pilots did then. but i would think a good tactic is too break away from each other and then get into a thach weave sort of thing to get the advantage. well at least only one of you would be at the disadvantage. they will have to get up behind one of you to get a shot. then you would be able to kill them if the time came.

[Istari6]

Against R-60 equipped opponents, letting them get into the rear quarter in parameters can be a death sentence.  I've had MiG-21s and Su-22s launch on me with R-60M, and as long as they're behind my 3-6 line, even a massive stream of flares and a hard break isn't enough to prevent getting hit most of the time.  Hard to believe that real US pilots would let enemy fighters get this close, and if you're outnumbered 2:1 at the merge and can't fire until fired upon, it's very difficult to prevent a MiG from getting a shooting opportunity.

Were real Tomcat pilots allowed to open fire if hostile fighters kept pressing close aggressively?  If not, how to protect oneself if you're still expected to merge?   

[captain_dalan]

Call and wait for backup if AWACS or radar reveals you are badly outnumbered? Or change the ROE if you suspect forward quarter capabilities by the bandits/bogies? 

[Panny]

13 hours ago, Istari6 said:

My buddy and I just played a user-created mission where we need to patrol the Persian Gulf around Oman.  The Iranians have been sending out their fighters to test the US Navy patrols, much like Libya did in the Gulf of Sidra events historically.  In this mission, we're told we're under Weapons Hold ROE until fired upon first.  

4 MiG-21s race up and close with us, yet we're under Weapons Hold ROE.  We turn to meet them, and as they close within a few nm, they launch a salvo of R-60M missiles.  We're given Weapons Free immediately, but we're already at knife-fight range with the MiG-21s and outnumbered 2:1.  My buddy goes down to an R-60 hit in the initial salvo, and I escape by plugging in burner and diving away to get some distance, then returned and started shooting down MiG-21s from range while an Alert 5 CAP came up to help.

Final score 4 Iranian MiGs splashed for 1 Tomcat lost, but it was frustrating for my buddy.  We were both left wondering how real Tomcat pilots dealt with aggressive merges like this in peacetime situations.  The opening scene of Top Gun is a 2-v-2 IIRC, where the Tomcats and "MiG-28s" could joust with each other and see which was better via getting STT locks (which freaks out Cougar).  But how do you deal with letting 4 MiGs close within WVR while they hold the ability to open fire at any moment if they get an advantage?  

In real life, I think the 2nd Gulf of Sidra incident (1989) saw the Tomcats going weapons free when the enemy aircraft kept closing with hostile intent within a certain range.  Is that more realistic?  

 

 

ROE is always a bit of a secret thing so it's speculation as to how it was specifically conducted.

Weapon hold can sound cool in terms of only firing until fired upon, but IRL there were different factors/criteria that would be used, with some factors being overriding(i.e. if you're launched on). Additionally, it's a bit silly to ask HOLD when typically you would ask a declaration from a controller who would assess it according to criteria. I know this is weapons tight as such, but in example:

ROE met if X of 8 criteria:
1. Origin of threat(where did they depart from?)
2. Formation(fighters only really go in formation, you won't be anticipating a champagne of 737s)
3. Proximity to friendly assets
4. Release of ordnance on friendly assets
5. Spiked(locked) by threat
6. IFF does not return MODE 3 or MODE 4
7. Threat continues to intercept ownship/friendly in spite of ownship manoeuvre
8. Visual ID as non friendly assets

 

TL;DR if you see a fourship of Fishbeds pointed at you very fast, in formation with a very low TA; you can assume they won't be a friend of yours.

[Noctrach]

3 hours ago, Panny said:

ROE is always a bit of a secret thing so it's speculation as to how it was specifically conducted.

Weapon hold can sound cool in terms of only firing until fired upon, but IRL there were different factors/criteria that would be used, with some factors being overriding(i.e. if you're launched on). Additionally, it's a bit silly to ask HOLD when typically you would ask a declaration from a controller who would assess it according to criteria. I know this is weapons tight as such, but in example:

ROE met if X of 8 criteria:
1. Origin of threat(where did they depart from?)
2. Formation(fighters only really go in formation, you won't be anticipating a champagne of 737s)
3. Proximity to friendly assets
4. Release of ordnance on friendly assets
5. Spiked(locked) by threat
6. IFF does not return MODE 3 or MODE 4
7. Threat continues to intercept ownship/friendly in spite of ownship manoeuvre
8. Visual ID as non friendly assets

 

TL;DR if you see a fourship of Fishbeds pointed at you very fast, in formation with a very low TA; you can assume they won't be a friend of yours.

You see exactly the same happen in the Sidra incident the OP mentiones. Its even debatable whether the fighters truly posed any threat. However, they were encroaching upon a carrier group and kept pointing nose despite the Tomcat group taking offsets, so were deemed enough threat to fire upon.

For OP, if you see a 4-ship of known MiG-21s with possibly hostile intent but a restrictive ROE, I wouldn't ever wait to see if Im fires upon. Take a 55 degree offset and if they turn to intercept and the mission still somehow doesnt give weapons clear, I'd bug the hell out before entering WEZ.

Let SAM take care of this until HQ has sorted its shenanigans...

[Istari6]

8 hours ago, Panny said:

ROE met if X of 8 criteria:
1. Origin of threat(where did they depart from?)
2. Formation(fighters only really go in formation, you won't be anticipating a champagne of 737s)
3. Proximity to friendly assets
4. Release of ordnance on friendly assets
5. Spiked(locked) by threat
6. IFF does not return MODE 3 or MODE 4
7. Threat continues to intercept ownship/friendly in spite of ownship manoeuvre
8. Visual ID as non friendly assets

That's really interesting.  This is a user made mission in the DCS Files section, so the requirement to be Weapons Hold until fired upon might not be realistic.  We definitely had 4 x MiG-21s closing on us aggressively right down to the merge, and they opened fire as they entered range.  It just seemed crazy that the US would risk two F-14 Tomcats by letting Iranian MiGs close on them aggressively, being outnumbered 2:1, and still ask the Tomcats to intercept them while being Weapons Hold.    

Here's the mission if anyone else tried it and had a different experience, or tips on how to handle this:  https://www.digitalcombatsimulator.com/en/files/3306369/

[Mr_sukebe]

A very interesting question.

The response on the Gulf of Sidra appears to be a good incident example.

As I understand it, the Migs in question flew straight at the F14s, and when the F14s changed course, the Migs repeatedly turned for the direct intercept.  In that example, the F14s splashed them before getting in close.

[okopanja]

4 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

A very interesting question.

The response on the Gulf of Sidra appears to be a good incident example.

As I understand it, the Migs in question flew straight at the F14s, and when the F14s changed course, the Migs repeatedly turned for the direct intercept.  In that example, the F14s splashed them before getting in close.

Clear thing, they shot them down way before they represented any threat.

How do you know that the line sentences in this recording are actually representative on what was going on during the incident?

Did Libyans ever publish their version of events?

[DD_Fenrir]

Libya complained to the UN.

In 1989, what seems to have occurred is an unfortunate combination of RoE, AWG-9 limitations and a crew egged up for a fight.

At that time the F-14 crews RoE was if they were committed to an intercept they would make an offset, i.e. turn away from the intercept course - if the bandit adjusted to correct for their own intercept course you make a 2nd offset. If the bandit’s correct their vector then you offset for a 3rd and final time and the bandit commits again then he’s fair game, kill him.

This seems to be in response to the 81 shoot down and the increased forward quarter missile threat of the eastern bloc types that were the likely opposition of the time.

In the lead RIOs defence he made 5 offsets before committing weapons, with him reporting on each occasion the banditS jinking back in intercept. It’s  just that the apparent recommit behaviour of the MiG-23 flight was an illusion, a graphical presentation anomaly of the AWG-9. Even the E-2 controller confirmed he could not corroborate the behaviour of the MiGs that the lead RIO was so sure he observed.

Seems the MiGs never even turned on their own radars - again from the E-2 controller.

The incident is held in some disregard by the USN and is apparently not looked upon favourably by Topgun. A good example of what not to do.

 

Edited June 18, 2022 by DD_Fenrir

[Mr_sukebe]

1 hour ago, okopanja said:

Clear thing, they shot them down way before they represented any threat.

How do you know that the line sentences in this recording are actually representative on what was going on during the incident?

Did Libyans ever publish their version of events?

 

Wouldn't disagree with your question at all.  I'm just commenting on the report, which as your rightly point out, is given from the US standpoint and could well include a level of "disinformation".

[okopanja]

32 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Wouldn't disagree with your question at all.  I'm just commenting on the report, which as your rightly point out, is given from the US standpoint and could well include a level of "disinformation".

I would not call it disinformation, but after so many years I would have expected to actually see more about. E.g. flight recordings, etc. I was delighted to find audio, and disappointed that there is no actual video.

[Jayhawk1971]

 

[Istari6]

Thanks for the info above about how real pilots use ROE.  Reflew the User-made mission linked above, this time faced four fighters of a different type (no spoilers).  Applied the lessons here about evading, turning back for reinforcements, etc. and successfully completed the mission.  I was operating too much from the opening scene of Top Gun, assuming we had to close and do WVR maneuvering with the bandits to get STT locks.  There's a much wider range of ways to handle threats even with restrictive ROE.  

[lunaticfringe]

Formation is a major factor here.  Disregard all of the Sidra II talk and look st the first.  

Hank and Music entered the engagement with offset in all three dimensions, the latter ahead, well to the right (better than one turn radius at the given speed), and above the former; when FE 102 made the head on pass and was the target of the first round, 107 was already turning to point at the Fitter lead.  He could have punched him on the spot, but position issues with his own lead, the sun, and his desire to be absolutely sure of clearance before dropping the hammer came into play. 

 

It wasn't until Hank had blown up the wingman and he- along with every other jet in the air at the time confirmed he was clear that Music then fired, but he held the aggressor in check the whole time, all based on the benefit of the original formation that gave him room to maneuver, an advantage at the start, and altitude to maintain his state. 

A more simplistic, but entirely viable option in a multi-bandit fight is classic Navy shooter-eyeball VID style approach.  Set one up in trail of two to four miles.  Lead hits the merge with bonus knots and exits, calling confirmation of the threat as soon as he can ID or see smoke from a weapon.  The extra miles give you time to convert an IFF'd track (remember, you're looking for validation to shoot, so be down the matrix before you get there) into an immediate STT and pop somebody, thereby bettering the odds from the start.  

[Istari6]

Really interesting, thanks!

[Rokkett]

Panel discussion here with 3 Tomcat crew members (2 US, 1 Iranian) involved in some of the shootdowns mentioned above: