Lofting rockets?

[Stratos]

Seen tons of vids of war in Ukraine where Ka52 loft rocket volleys to a unseen target. Is there any way to simulate this tactic in DCS Ka50?

[TheSkipjack95]

Just pull up and shoot.

[Stratos]

29 minutes ago, TheSkipjack95 said:

Just pull up and shoot.

I plan to hit something, lol.

[razo+r]

Use the SHKVAL and lase a target and then you'll see how far up you have to raise the nose to hit the spot.

[TheSkipjack95]

13 minutes ago, Stratos said:

I plan to hit something, lol.

What makes you think they hit anything ? Rockets aren't exactly precise at the best of times, and when  you start lobbing them towards the general direction of the enemy....

[Volk.]

Like Razo+r said, lase, correct ballistic setting, and pull nose up. You might not get a full 30 degree nose-up before the reticule goes off the HUD, so you'll need to see what still works.

Rockets are inherently not that accurate, so best done with e.g. OFP2s vs infantry or S-13s vs a big building. Closer you get = more hits, unless you absolutely need to vent that ordinance to suppress rather than destroy and can't risk getting any closer.

[3WA]

Rockets suck unless they're up close.  I use the funnel maneuver to get within about 3 to 6 meters and then punch rockets at armor.

Beyond a few meters, out to like 50 meters, you're lucky if you get a hit or two.  Beyond 50 meters, its a roll of the dice.

Edited June 27, 2022 by 3WA

[Dragon1-1]

Lofting rockets only works for suppressing infantry over an area. It's not something that is currently simulated in DCS, although IRL it is a common use for helos. Either way, you're not expecting those rockets to actually kill anyone except by accident, you want to force the enemy infantry to take cover and stop shooting at friendlies.

[Avimimus]

Most of us suspect that rocket fragmentation is undermodelled in DCS... which means the use of a rocket pod for area effects (cluster bomb style) isn't going to be as effective as it is in real life in any case.

Still interesting to try the technique though.

On 6/27/2022 at 7:33 PM, 3WA said:

Rockets suck unless they're up close.  I use the funnel maneuver to get within about 3 to 6 meters and then punch rockets at armor.

Beyond a few meters, out to like 50 meters, you're lucky if you get a hit or two.  Beyond 50 meters, its a roll of the dice.

At those ranges cannon are almost always much more effective!

[3WA]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

 

At those ranges cannon are almost always much more effective!

Not against Main Battle Tank armor.  Even some of the more modern APC's are pretty tough.

Rockets punch MUCH harder with their 80mm HEAT warheads.

Even the 30mm on the Warthog can only pierce about 90mm of RHA rated armor.

Edited June 30, 2022 by 3WA

[Baltic Dude]

On 6/19/2022 at 6:53 AM, Stratos said:

Seen tons of vids of war in Ukraine where Ka52 loft rocket volleys to a unseen target. Is there any way to simulate this tactic in DCS Ka50?

Here you go

EDIT ⁠— I made a mistake in the video by accident. I was using HEAT rockets in the video by mistake. Correct ranges for HE rockets are ~9.0-9.5km at 30 degrees and ~10.5-11km at 45 degrees.

On 6/19/2022 at 9:01 AM, Volk. said:

Like Razo+r said, lase, correct ballistic setting, and pull nose up. You might not get a full 30 degree nose-up before the reticule goes off the HUD, so you'll need to see what still works.

Rockets are inherently not that accurate, so best done with e.g. OFP2s vs infantry or S-13s vs a big building. Closer you get = more hits, unless you absolutely need to vent that ordinance to suppress rather than destroy and can't risk getting any closer.

lol

Edited August 7, 2022 by Baltic Dude

[Stratos]

Thanks for sharing that!!

[Baltic Dude]

1 hour ago, Stratos said:

Thanks for sharing that!!

Thanks for asking! Was surprised there was no guide on YouTube so I made one.

[Dragon1-1]

On 6/30/2022 at 9:03 PM, 3WA said:

Not against Main Battle Tank armor.  Even some of the more modern APC's are pretty tough.

An 80mm rocket won't do a whole lot against an MBT, either (though optics damage and knocking the commander's MG off is certainly on the cards), so that's a pretty high bar. IRL, whether a 30mm AP round burst or an 80mm HEAT shell is more effective comes down to what kind of armor the vehicle has. Against reactive armor, an AP burst will be definitely more effective, since the first shell will detonate the tile and the rest will go straight at the armor. That is how modern APCs, particularly amphibious ones, can get so though without blowing their weight budget. Likewise, cage armor will stop HEAT pretty reliably, but won't do jack against AP cannon rounds. OTOH, against a simple hardened plate you will get better results with HEAT. In both cases, these weapons will work well against light and medium armor but not against a modern tank.

[zerO_crash]

In general, there seems to be some inefficient ways recommended here as to deployment of unguided rockets in a lofting-type attack. If you want to use this technique, which I do quite often myself, do the following:

 

- Either on pre-brief or during active mission (by scouting from long range 15km+), add a NAV TGT. That way, you will have an accurate range-estimate and more importantly, direction to the target-area in your HUD.

- With the NAV TGT selected, fly to the exact range from the target, and proceed with the attack.

- Upon attacking, select the appropriate stations (with S-8) and proceed to attack. (You can keep the "Automatic Tracking"-switch in "AT", as well as leaving the Shkval caged). This way, you only select rockets, monitor the distance to the target and perform the pull-up and release weapons once within the parameters. Finally, enjoy a successful attack.

 

I typically go for a lobbing-attack with S-8OFP2 due to their explosive-effect. It's simply the best area-effect weapon. The ranges that I generally perform such attacks at are typically two, 7.5km (S-8OFP2 - 15-20 degrees pitch up) and 11.5km (S-8OFP2 - 40-45 degrees pitch up). There are more profiles, but these suit the lobbing-strategy well considering the type of target that you wish to engage, and their range (SAM, etc...). 

 

Keep in mind one more thing, before engaging, make sure that upon creating a NAV TGT, you check the elevation of the target (ASL) on Abris. You want to start your attack (before pulling up) at roughly the same altitude as the target-area that you are engaging. If your altitude differs, you'll have to adjust accordingly (if you're higher - aim lower, if you're lower - aim higher). The rest is practice and getting a feeling for it.

Edited August 8, 2022 by zerO_crash

[okopanja]

In one of the videos from east confict person can be heared saying: 4km. At the same time there is piiip in the background and ka-52 pitches 30 degrer. It looks like they are using "launch prohibited" with piper to aim.

[Baltic Dude]

7 hours ago, zerO_crash said:

In general, there seems to be some inefficient ways recommended here as to deployment of unguided rockets in a lofting-type attack. If you want to use this technique, which I do quite often myself, do the following:

 

- Either on pre-brief or during active mission (by scouting from long range 15km+), add a NAV TGT. That way, you will have an accurate range-estimate and more importantly, direction to the target-area in your HUD.

- With the NAV TGT selected, fly to the exact range from the target, and proceed with the attack.

- Upon attacking, select the appropriate stations (with S-8) and proceed to attack. (You can keep the "Automatic Tracking"-switch in "AT", as well as leaving the Shkval caged). This way, you only select rockets, monitor the distance to the target and perform the pull-up and release weapons once within the parameters. Finally, enjoy a successful attack.

 

I typically go for a lobbing-attack with S-8OFP2 due to their explosive-effect. It's simply the best area-effect weapon. The ranges that I generally perform such attacks at are typically two, 7.5km (S-8OFP2 - 25-30 degrees pitch up) and 11.5km (S-8OFP2 - 40-45 degrees pitch up). There are more profiles, but these suit the lobbing-strategy well considering the type of target that you wish to engage, and their range (SAM, etc...). 

 

Keep in mind one more thing, before engaging, make sure that upon creating a NAV TGT, you check the elevation of the target (ASL) on Abris. You want to start your attack (before pulling up) at roughly the same altitude as the target-area that you are engaging. If your altitude differs, you'll have to adjust accordingly (if you're higher - aim lower, if you're lower - aim higher). The rest is practice and getting a feeling for it.

Thanks, I will include that in the description 

[Baltic Dude]

On 6/19/2022 at 6:53 AM, Stratos said:

Seen tons of vids of war in Ukraine where Ka52 loft rocket volleys to a unseen target. Is there any way to simulate this tactic in DCS Ka50?

Btw, I made a mistake in the video.. I was using HEAT rockets by accident in the video. Correct ranges for HE rockets are ~9.0-9.5km at 30 degrees and ~10.5-11km at 45 degrees

Edited August 7, 2022 by Baltic Dude

[Volk.]

Some of the Ka-52 footage you can see they have a pipper ~30 degrees up which they pull into. I.e. that avionics set gives them an aiming point for that calculated loft/range.

And yeah, DCS no frag or morale/suppression effect and trees have stallinium leaves, so the more extreme lofting isn't that magical since even if executed perfectly, added distance makes for a wider dispersion and less likely kills. Has uses, just not that common in DCS.

 

@Baltic Dude adding to what zerO-crash said, target points are good for slewing & distance. In your vid you set it up as a waypoint. If you use a target point, you'll see the distance appear on your HUD as well. So even without laser ranging, you have an indicator on your HUD for distance, so no need to look down at the PVI/HSI.

When you say "HE rockets" are you meaning the OFP2?

[Baltic Dude]

11 hours ago, Volk. said:

Some of the Ka-52 footage you can see they have a pipper ~30 degrees up which they pull into. I.e. that avionics set gives them an aiming point for that calculated loft/range.

And yeah, DCS no frag or morale/suppression effect and trees have stallinium leaves, so the more extreme lofting isn't that magical since even if executed perfectly, added distance makes for a wider dispersion and less likely kills. Has uses, just not that common in DCS.

 

@Baltic Dude adding to what zerO-crash said, target points are good for slewing & distance. In your vid you set it up as a waypoint. If you use a target point, you'll see the distance appear on your HUD as well. So even without laser ranging, you have an indicator on your HUD for distance, so no need to look down at the PVI/HSI.

When you say "HE rockets" are you meaning the OFP2?

Yes OFP2 and thank you, I included the information in the video's description.

[BalticDude]

On 8/6/2022 at 11:00 PM, Baltic Dude said:

Here you go

EDIT ⁠— I made a mistake in the video by accident. I was using HEAT rockets in the video by mistake. Correct ranges for HE rockets are ~9.0-9.5km at 30 degrees and ~10.5-11km at 45 degrees.

lol

 

Just to let you guys know that my Google account and everything associated with it has been stolen. I no longer have access to the YouTube account. If this video ever goes down and gets deleted, let me know and I will re-upload. Thanks.

[AeriaGloria]

On 8/9/2022 at 11:43 AM, Baltic Dude said:

Yes OFP2 and thank you, I included the information in the video's description.

Your numbers are interesting. What speed and altitude were you at? I was testing Mi-24, trying to follow manual procedures, which only have tables for S-5KO/S-8KOM. At release altitude of 50-100m and 240-280 kmh I got 6.6-6.9 km for 10 degree loft, 9.6-9.9 km for 20 degree loft; and about 11 km for 30 degree loft. 
 

Which kindve aligns with your numbers if you add the influence of speed and altitude. I found 30 degrees launches very impractical as it was difficult to be on the perfect heading, but I suppose you don’t really have that problem when you have a HUD. 

[BalticDude]

11 hours ago, AeriaGloria said:

Your numbers are interesting. What speed and altitude were you at? I was testing Mi-24, trying to follow manual procedures, which only have tables for S-5KO/S-8KOM. At release altitude of 50-100m and 240-280 kmh I got 6.6-6.9 km for 10 degree loft, 9.6-9.9 km for 20 degree loft; and about 11 km for 30 degree loft. 
 

Which kindve aligns with your numbers if you add the influence of speed and altitude. I found 30 degrees launches very impractical as it was difficult to be on the perfect heading, but I suppose you don’t really have that problem when you have a HUD. 

It depends on the speed and altitude and what type of rockets you fire. Hind goes a lot faster than the Ka-50 so you're getting added distance from the faster speed of the Hind. I kind of just go cruising speed with Ka-50 at near ground alt and that's what I based the numbers on. I didn't know about the button to bring that info to your HUD before, but using it makes it easier. I like 20 degrees as I'm able to do it fast and accurately over the 30.

[Volk.]

It's not a button/special function, as much as just it appears on your HUD like a normal target. And depending on the angle/altitude of your attack it may just-just show with a 30deg pitch up.

On the speed side of things - If the Shark was going 250 and the Hind 330 for example, that's 22 metres per second extra speed - but not sure that'll be a massive difference to a rocket going 700 m/s.

@AeriaGloria maybe with the Hind it was just done going heads-down watching the HSI and ADI, keeping the wings level and heading as it was before the pitch up and obviously with some degree of error.

[AeriaGloria]

8 hours ago, Volk. said:

It's not a button/special function, as much as just it appears on your HUD like a normal target. And depending on the angle/altitude of your attack it may just-just show with a 30deg pitch up.

On the speed side of things - If the Shark was going 250 and the Hind 330 for example, that's 22 metres per second extra speed - but not sure that'll be a massive difference to a rocket going 700 m/s.

@AeriaGloria maybe with the Hind it was just done going heads-down watching the HSI and ADI, keeping the wings level and heading as it was before the pitch up and obviously with some degree of error.

Yes you just pitch up using ADI to pre defined number. I’ve heard differing reports of how far the Shark lets you use CCIP. The S-8OFP2 rockets are about 450 m/s speed. Per the manual, a launch of 200 kmh and a launch of 300 kmh adds/takes away about 300m to launch distance