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More info on the later Phantom we are receiving on launch?


Salty Buckets

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Forgive me if this question has been answered already, as I am new to the Forums and also not well versed on the F-4 in general.

As stated in the FAQ, "(We will be receiving) an upgraded (DMAS) version of the aircraft in one package" How exactly does the DMAS Phantom differ from the classic F-4E we are also receiving on launch?

Are there any types of ordinance that the DMAS F-4E can carry that the classic F-4E cannot?

Finally, what is the latest AIM-7 model that the F-4E could carry?

Thanks in advance!

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Depending on the timeframe Heatblur model the aircraft to, the standard Phantom should be capable of launching Maverick, Shrike, Sidewinder up to AIM-9M, Sparrow AIM-7E to AIM-7F, LGB's with the PAVE Spike pod, and a variety of iron bombs, rockets and other ballistic weapons. The Standard F-4E will be visual bombing like the F-5E does in game now and navigation will use an older INS and depend more heavily on the mental capabilities if the aircrew. 

The ARN-101/DMAS F-4E will have all of the above minus the PAVE Spike. It will gain the PAVE Tack pod and the capability to use the GBU-15. The biggest changes to the ARN-101/DMAS F-4E are in the navigation and visual bombing areas. The installation involved a digital integrated nav/attack system with LORAN-C integration, and updated RADAR, Autopilot, Lead Computing Optical Sight system, and new displays in the rear cockpit. The ARN-101/DMAS system can hold 99 waypoints, calculate time in route, time over destination and cross track errors. The LORAN-C integration greatly improves navigation capability by essentially removing drift errors of the original INS as it is constantly being updated. ARN-101 allowed the aircrew to fly hands off along a pre-planned route and allowed for hands off precision approaches. ARN-101/DMAS gave the Phantom a true night and all weather capability. Most of the changes pertain to the WSO seat. The biggest front seat change is the inclusion of CCIP bombing and it also has a blind bombing mode as well. 


Edited by Vampyre
Update AIM-7M to AIM-7F
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Truly superior pilots are those that use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

 

If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

 

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For our Pre DMAS aircraft, expect Juilet/Papa winders, Aim-7 Echo through foxtrot Sparrows , Shrikes , your standard Mark 80 series of Iron bombs and maybe early guided weaponry such as the Bullpup( Easy to carry the code from the RB05 from the HB viggen) and BOLT-117 (M-117 laser guided bombs) with the potential of Pave Knife , Pave Spike , and other weaponry i probably missed.

DMAS, see Vampyre post above, tho id imagine HB would add Mavericks to this jet and leave the pre DMAS aircraft to model a Vietnam era bird . Also a couple of things I missed but definately comming to our Phantom , the TISEO (similar but not the same as the TCS in the F-14) and the most important change to the phantom, AGILE EAGLE (Caps locked it as most reports ive seen refer to it in all caps)

OIP.jpgdownload.jpg

 

Left is pre agile, Right is Post 

Final remarks is to not expect the AIM-7M or late Aim-9s past L as those were earmarked for Fighter intercept squadrons and F-16 squadrons

Thanks

FangsOut

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On 6/19/2022 at 7:19 PM, Fangs Out said:

For our Pre DMAS aircraft, expect Juilet/Papa winders, Aim-7 Echo through foxtrot Sparrows , Shrikes , your standard Mark 80 series of Iron bombs and maybe early guided weaponry such as the Bullpup( Easy to carry the code from the RB05 from the HB viggen) and BOLT-117 (M-117 laser guided bombs) with the potential of Pave Knife , Pave Spike , and other weaponry i probably missed.

DMAS, see Vampyre post above, tho id imagine HB would add Mavericks to this jet and leave the pre DMAS aircraft to model a Vietnam era bird . Also a couple of things I missed but definately comming to our Phantom , the TISEO (similar but not the same as the TCS in the F-14) and the most important change to the phantom, AGILE EAGLE (Caps locked it as most reports ive seen refer to it in all caps)

OIP.jpgdownload.jpg

 

Left is pre agile, Right is Post 

Final remarks is to not expect the AIM-7M or late Aim-9s past L as those were earmarked for Fighter intercept squadrons and F-16 squadrons

Thanks

FangsOut

The ARN-101/DMAS birds did not replace the standard F-4E in service. Both were operated at the same time right up until the end of service (early 90's) of the F-4E in the US. Depending on the timeframe Heatblur models the standard F-4E to (which we do not yet know) it could very well have AIM-7F and AIM-9M. If they limit it to a Vietnam era bird then expect AIM-9B/E Sidewinders, AIM-4 Falcon, and AIM-7E/E-2 Sparrows. I suspect that Heatblur will model the latest version of the two types to allow for the greatest range of use within the DCS environment. Mission makers have the option to limit the weapons included in the mission editor as they see fit but cannot add weapons to fit a more modern environment. The PAVE Knife was an F-4D pod so don't expect that one for use on the F-4E at all.


Edited by Vampyre
Update AIM-7M to AIM-7F
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Truly superior pilots are those that use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

 

If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

 

"If at first you don't succeed, Carrier Landings are not for you!"

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It would depend on the block, AGM-65s werent added until later Blocks (53?)

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5 hours ago, Vampyre said:

The Standard F-4E will be visual bombing like the F-5E does in game now and navigation will use an older INS and depend more heavily on the mental capabilities if the aircrew. 

Didn't all D and E Phantoms have the ability to use dive toss?

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5 hours ago, Fromthedeep said:

Didn't all D and E Phantoms have the ability to use dive toss?

Not really. First of all, "dive-toss" is an F-16 term for a visually designated CCRP mode that can be used for a dive or toss attack. Second, any aircraft can perform a toss bombing attack by flying the numbers and releasing at the right moment, but accuracy in such profile sucks. Before CCRP became a thing, it was pretty much only used for nuclear weapon delivery, as toss bombing gave the longest possible bomb TOF and put the delivery aircraft on a heading directly away from the drop, giving it more time to get clear of the blast. Accuracy didn't matter because, well, it's a nuke, a miss of a few hundred meters wouldn't really matter. I suppose if you were really good with flying the numbers, you could do also that with rippled CBUs if you really had to. If you want any sort of accuracy in the Phantom, though, you need to do dive bombing. And even then, word is that of all fighter-bombers in Vietnam, Phantoms were the least accurate.

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10 hours ago, Vampyre said:

The ARN-101/DMAS birds did not replace the standard F-4E in service. Both were operated at the same time right up until the end of service (early 90's) of the F-4E in the US. Depending on the timeframe Heatblur models the standard F-4E to (which we do not yet know) it could very well have AIM-7M and AIM-9M. If they limit it to a Vietnam era bird then expect AIM-9B/E Sidewinders, AIM-4 Falcon, and AIM-7E/E-2 Sparrows. I suspect that Heatblur will model the latest version of the two types to allow for the greatest range of use within the DCS environment. Mission makers have the option to limit the weapons included in the mission editor as they see fit but cannot add weapons to fit a more modern environment. The PAVE Knife was an F-4D pod so don't expect that one for use on the F-4E at all.

Are you sure the the USAF F-4E's could carry AIM-7M's? My understanding is that the last compatible version was the AIM-7F which could accept the CW guidance available from the old APQ-120 radar. I don't remember if the AIM-7M was ever capable of this.

A bit of a tangent here but the DCS AIM-7F is kinematically identical to an AIM-7M (without loft) anyway so they could still be deadly in a restricted 80's weapons scenario.

And as for Vietnam-era birds, they could include the AIM-9J as well. We already have the P so it would be basically the same from a DCS perspective, save for maybe CM resistance.


Edited by SgtPappy
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1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

First of all, "dive-toss" is an F-16 term

There's a famous 1970 article by Capt. Bob Baxter called "Let's Get Serious About Dive Toss," it is most certainly not solely an F-16 term hahaha. 

The F-4D and E had a weapon release computer system that allowed the pilot to point the sight at a target, the backseater to lock the radar onto the ground at that point, the pilot to then pull up while holding the pickle button, and the WRCS to finally decide the perfect moment to release the bombs. All else being equal, it was more accurate than dive bombing. In fact,  F-4E's stationed at Korat used Dive Toss to great effect over Laos. That being said it wasn't perfect and every F-4 had it's quirks, but it is inaccurate to say that if you want any sort of accuracy in the F-4, you need to dive bomb. Not true.

Chapter 7 gives a great overview of Dive Toss in the F-4: Sierra Hotel, C. R. Anderegg

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1 hour ago, _BringTheReign_ said:

There's a famous 1970 article by Capt. Bob Baxter called "Let's Get Serious About Dive Toss," it is most certainly not solely an F-16 term hahaha. 

Well, the book makes a good case as to why one might think this to be the case. 🙂 WRCS was indeed an early form of CCRP, which allowed toss attacks, but it seems like aside from folks at Korat, it wasn't used very much. Most of what's been written about dive bombing in Vietnam mentions manual mode only.

Interestingly, this is the first time I encountered "dive-toss" itself outside the F-16 context. This might be a USAF/USN thing, but other airframes I know call it a loft delivery or simply CCRP.

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9 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I know call it a loft delivery or simply CCRP.

At least in Strike Eagle land, they are two different things. Lofts are almost exclusively low level deliveries that start a pull up until 4Gs at a rate of 2G/s at the computed point. Toss deliveries come in two flavours, but generally both start from a dive. Dive toss, is a 10-45 degree diving delivery that culminates in a 3-4G pull at the computed point. It's called dive toss because you're diving down and "tossing" the bomb further than a dive glide delivery would get it. The other toss is low altitude toss, which is essentially the same thing but starting from low level then into a pop up manuver and then the same diving delivery.

 

But of course different communities may have different naming conventions depending on their TTPs. If you google around a bit (using terms like F-4 dive toss sim hq for example), you'll find a thread where someone quotes an unclassified F-4 3-3 that gives further insight to the operation of the system.

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14 hours ago, SgtPappy said:

Are you sure the the USAF F-4E's could carry AIM-7M's? My understanding is that the last compatible version was the AIM-7F which could accept the CW guidance available from the old APQ-120 radar. I don't remember if the AIM-7M was ever capable of this.

You sir are correct. AIM-7F will be the latest the F-4E will be able to use. The AIM-7M will be used by the F-4S.

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Truly superior pilots are those that use their superior judgment to avoid those situations where they might have to use their superior skills.

 

If you ever find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

 

"If at first you don't succeed, Carrier Landings are not for you!"

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On 6/19/2022 at 7:38 PM, Salty Buckets said:

How exactly does the DMAS Phantom differ from the classic F-4E we are also receiving on launch?

It replaces some old analogue navigation and bombing computers with a single digital unit that is more advanced in many way, and can store up to 99 waypoints if I recall correctly. Gets CCIP bombing modes thanks to these systems as well, among a few different controls in the cockpit. DMAS jets also have TISEO on the left wing root, an identification long range TV camera system in a way similar to TCS on Tomcat. Also the radar is upgraded slightly, but it doesn't seem like a very substantial update for it.

On 6/20/2022 at 7:46 AM, SkateZilla said:

It would depend on the block, AGM-65s werent added until later Blocks (53?)

AFAIK, no, even the early variant we get first should be Maverick capable. And I seem to recall that being the case from reading the manuals too.

On 6/20/2022 at 4:23 AM, Vampyre said:

The Standard F-4E will be visual bombing like the F-5E does in game now

There is a (kinda finicky to program/use) bombing computer with quite a few delivery modes on pre-DMAS F-4Es too, and the one we are to get is, AFAIK, one with up to 1974 upgrades, and is one of the later variants before the DMAS. It is sort of like the one in A-4E, but more complicated. How accurate it is though, we'll have to see and explore 😛 I do vaguely remember some anectodes that pilots usually opted bombing manually.

On 6/19/2022 at 7:38 PM, Salty Buckets said:

Are there any types of ordinance that the DMAS F-4E can carry that the classic F-4E cannot?

Depending on the exact timeframe for the DMAS bird we get, it can potentially have GBU-15 (mid 80s if I recall correctly), as well as its datalink pod. Heatblur said they are also looking into hopefully giving it the Pave Tack pod.

GBU-15 is a TV guided bomb that you can either drop in a fire and forget fashion if the seeker can acquire the intended target before the launch, or can guide post launch in a "man in the loop" fashion with the datalink pod. It replaces the earlier GBU-8, which had no man in the loop capability, and its seeker could really only acquire a target from uncomfortably close.

Pave Tack is a rather gigantic targeting pod that can be mounted either one of the "heavy" wing pylons, or the centerline. Unlike the Pave Spike that should be available on the earlier version, this pod is more sophisticated with some area tracking capability, FLIR, and night operation. It gets more cueing options too, some working with ARN-101/DMAS system to interface with navigation data and/or other sensors, almost as we are accustomed to from more modern aircraft with modern pods we have.

Overall, pre-DMAS bird isn't exactly a Vietnam-only bird, but can be that with some payload restriction, or can represent both USAF and international post-war service beautifully. DMAS on the other hand, is the more strike optimized bird used by USAF and some others during the 80s and up.

Things both have in common:

- Slats

- AIM-9J and Ps (whether they got L/M seems contentious, I personally don't remember seeing them being mentioned for E in the docs I have)

- AIM-7E-2 and F

- Self lasing with their respective (old-school) TGPs to drop GBU-12 and GBU-10 LGBs.

- AGM-45 Shrike anti-radar missiles (that should be rather adventurous :P)

- AGM-65 Mavericks, I believe up to D, but perhaps it'll be up to D for DMAS bird. Fairly sure I did see Ds being mentioned for pre DMAS birds too, but been a while I've read the stuff.

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10 hours ago, WinterH said:

- AGM-65 Mavericks, I believe up to D, but perhaps it'll be up to D for DMAS bird. Fairly sure I did see Ds being mentioned for pre DMAS birds too, but been a while I've read the stuff.

Wow if we could get the AGM-65D on the pre-DMAS bird, that will be incredible! Hopefully we'll at least get the B.

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I personally haven't seen much in the docs I have about the radar update, but it really seem like a minor upgrade to APQ-120. For look down capability you'll need to wait for the Navy F-4s I think.

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

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AFAIK the USAF F-4's never got a pulse doppler radar. But I've read somewhere that the late E's had a rudimentary look down shoot down, which was done by some computer upgrades

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On 6/19/2022 at 9:23 PM, Vampyre said:

LGB's with the PAVE Spike pod, and a variety of iron bombs, rockets and other ballistic weapons. The Standard F-4E will be visual bombing like the F-5E

So does the Pave Spike tell the pilot when to release an LGB? Or does the pilot have to guesstimate like with a dumb bomb, then guide it in with the TPod?

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AFAIK, it's the latter. LGBs were typically dropped using ballistic tables and the depressible pipper, then guided by keeping the TGP on target. Not sure if Pave Spike had any sort of stabilization, Pave Knife didn't. I think it wasn't until LANTIRN that the pod estimated when to pickle the bomb for a level drop. 

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From what I remember, it's like Dragon said above: you still drop the bomb the way you would drop any iron bomb, no cues from the pod.

Later Pave Tack, together with DMAS can provide cues afaik, but that's not related to the first variant we'll get.

Wishlist: F-4E Block 53 +, MiG-27K, Su-17M3 or M4, AH-1F or W circa 80s or early 90s, J35 Draken, Kfir C7, Mirage III/V

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On 6/20/2022 at 5:25 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Well, the book makes a good case as to why one might think this to be the case. 🙂 WRCS was indeed an early form of CCRP, which allowed toss attacks, but it seems like aside from folks at Korat, it wasn't used very much. Most of what's been written about dive bombing in Vietnam mentions manual mode only.

Interestingly, this is the first time I encountered "dive-toss" itself outside the F-16 context. This might be a USAF/USN thing, but other airframes I know call it a loft delivery or simply CCRP.

Get Palace Cobra by Ed Rasimus. He was a 105 first-tourer and he basicly explains that with Dive Toss a young Lootenant freshly out of RTU could achieve better bombing results than him as a 100-mission F-105 jock dropping manually. It's a good book worth reading!

On 6/21/2022 at 2:45 PM, WinterH said:

Overall, pre-DMAS bird isn't exactly a Vietnam-only bird, but can be that with some payload restriction, or can represent both USAF and international post-war service beautifully. DMAS on the other hand, is the more strike optimized bird used by USAF and some others during the 80s and up.

And it fits rather nicely into the YKW timeframe.

Does TISEO mean DMAS is in the airplane or is that a separate mod by itself, which was later commonly standardized? Lots of Nickel Grass airframes seem to have TISEO.

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5 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

And it fits rather nicely into the YKW timeframe.

Does TISEO mean DMAS is in the airplane or is that a separate mod by itself, which was later commonly standardized? Lots of Nickel Grass airframes seem to have TISEO.

TISEO and DMAS were separate upgrades. My understanding is that DMAS was a post-YKW upgrade.

The first TISEO-equipped Phantoms to see action flew in the closing days of the US' involvement in the Vietnam War.

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