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Virtual Reality Optimization time frame


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Hello, i was so excited last year when ED announced that they will be optmiizing the game for multithreading and vulcan, which will give the game a performance boost (VR included). The announcement was that this will happen in 2021, we are now mid 2022 and ED has gone silent on this. Has anyone any updates ?

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It's still work in progress, but, no substantive update on the work has been made, everyone agrees that this is a large undertaking, and I am not expecting any updates until ED's team is closer to a release. Silence normally means it's not going well or is more complex than they thought, it's perfectly normal in the world of software. 

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ED has focussed more on developing new modules (brings money in) and have let the main engine fall behind badly.  We all recognise this and have done so for a while but haven't seen much happening to indicate a change in this course alas 😢

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I can remember a "2021 and beyond" post, where they (ED) said they expect Vulcan for autuum 2021. But anyone, that has followed this topic for a longer time, knew, that chances for that were slim.

I guess, thats also why ED dont state any datea anymore, except until they are really close to the release.

So, considering the huge undertaking the rewrite of the whole DCS-core has to be, Id not expect too much too soon...

The biggest progress, that has been made this year, was the appearance of OpenXR, which of course is no work of ED. But maybe they the properly implement this in the not too distant future. Just did a comparison between SteamVR and OpenXR and except the perf-difference and gain in clarity for me is huge. Only MR, that still is not great (for me at least).

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13 hours ago, Brainfreeze said:

ED has focussed more on developing new modules (brings money in) and have let the main engine fall behind badly.  We all recognise this and have done so for a while but haven't seen much happening to indicate a change in this course alas 😢

Speculation and not likely to be correct either. 

This is the nature of software. It will be done when its done. I'd just forget about it and be pleasantly surprised when its ready. Though in all likelihood the first iteration will initially be less then expected and will still take a bit longer to really see big advantages.

OpenXR is a great step forward and probably the biggest performance win we will see for a while yet.  

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19 hours ago, Brainfreeze said:

ED has focussed more on developing new modules (brings money in) and have let the main engine fall behind badly.  We all recognise this and have done so for a while but haven't seen much happening to indicate a change in this course alas 😢

So how many of the module creation folks do you feel have the expertise to re-write the underlying engine?

 Not only does the company actually need to survive first and foremost (sell stuff)...  but also the game runs spectacularly when not running VR as far as I can tell.  I only run VR though...

 


Edited by M1Combat
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4 hours ago, M1Combat said:

So how many of the module creation folks do you feel have the expertise to re-write the underlying engine?

None. Engine and a module inside the game has almost nothing incommon. To write an engine code, you need to be a ****** ********, you know John Carmack, or Geoff Crammond for exampe?

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9 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

None. Engine and a module inside the game has almost nothing incommon. To write an engine code, you need to be a ****** ********, you know John Carmack, or Geoff Crammond for exampe?

Blast from the past Geoff Crammond what a man indeed.

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16 hours ago, M1Combat said:

So how many of the module creation folks do you feel have the expertise to re-write the underlying engine?

 Not only does the company actually need to survive first and foremost (sell stuff)...  but also the game runs spectacularly when not running VR as far as I can tell.  I only run VR though...

 

 

No, game doesnt run "spectacularly" on 2D neither, it just need way less resources, but from that to "spectacularly" theres a big difference.

If i remember correctly, @BIGNEWY said not long ago that multicore was on final steps of development, but i don´t remember where

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1 hour ago, 5ephir0th said:

@BIGNEWY said not long ago that multicore was on final steps of development, but i don´t remember where

Multicore is in progress and hopefully we can share news soon, but I can not give any timeline currently. 

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8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Multicore is in progress and hopefully we can share news soon, but I can not give any timeline currently. 

I was flying the hornet in DCS with fpsVR utility overlay to check the GPU and CPU timeframe. I have a 3080Ti with intel i7-12700k, 32GB DDR5 RAM. When i flew past the carrier with a couple of aircrafts on the deck, I started experiencing a lot of stutter, and my jaw dropped to see that the GPU frame time was all green, while the CPU was red. I dont know what "in progress" means, but this is really bad, and reflects how badly DCS utilizes the CPU. Instead of focusing on new modules, more effort needs to be put on modernizing the code as you improve graphics and update the game.

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On 6/20/2022 at 9:44 PM, skywalker22 said:

None. Engine and a module inside the game has almost nothing incommon. To write an engine code, you need to be a ****** ********, you know John Carmack, or Geoff Crammond for exampe?

That was my point 🙂

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On 6/20/2022 at 11:16 AM, Brainfreeze said:

ED has focussed more on developing new modules (brings money in) and have let the main engine fall behind badly.  We all recognise this and have done so for a while but haven't seen much happening to indicate a change in this course alas 😢

Doesn't become true through endless repetition. Developing an aircraft module is a different animal than deveolping the core engine. ED stated multiple times that different teams work on different projects. Thinking that ED doesn't have an own interest in further developing the core engine is pretty naive too.

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Your point is that module teams and core engine teams are different, which makes sense. However, that by itself does not mean that ED is putting the right amount of focus/resources on the core engine team. Maybe the investment (resources/money/etc) is in the module team because it generates money on the short term. My impression is that there is way less focus on the core team than modules team since ED communicated to the community that Vulcan/Multithreading will be completed in 2021, and we are now Mid 2022 and ED has gone silent, while we see a very active communication/updates from ED around new modules and patching/upgrading them.

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They haven't gone silent. 

You just clearly aren't paying attention :).

 

Even to THIS thread where they have responded 😉...  in the same way I've seen them respond to this question dang near every time it's asked.  They will NOT give release dates any more (I'd love to go into why, but I won't...  you're welcome) so the only thing they have to share is that they're working on it.  Do you think that's a lie?

 

Three things...  Lets start with expectations...

One...  What makes you think that Vulkan and multi-threading are going to significantly impact YOU in DCS?

Two...  What do you think the overall immediate impact of Vulkan and Multi-threading will be in DCS in general?  

Three...  You realize these modules that have been releasing recently have been in development since about the same time or even before the engine team was put to work on the re-write?  I mean...  have you been around since before 2.1?  The Edge update?  That was needed before the vulkan/multi-thread update and I'm pretty sure the new Vulkan/MT stuff has been worked on since then or likely before.  It's been a subject for a "long" time friend :).  It's not like they were like "Hey...  lets attract MILLIONS of people by telling them that we'll update the engine...  then...  while they're waiting for THAT we'll just bait and switcheroo and sell them these super easy and quick to create modules to STEAL their MONEY!!!!  MWAHHH AHHH AHHH AHHHHH!!!!".  Come on...  Seriously...  This isn't some 12,000 employee AAA title developer that STILL just re-skins COD and FIFA 99 every effing year...  AND...  the software they're building is SIGNIFICANTLY more complex.

Oh and ONE MORE....

They DO actually create engine updates if you look around and know what to look for.  Have you taken off from one of those new fangled "Not perfectly flat" runways yet?  Yup...  that's a VERY important core engine update that actually affects more people than Vulkan/MT will for years.  Vulkan/MT will really just bring VR performance up to being equal to pancake performance (at best...  IMO...)...  then the devs and community will go about finding super cool ways to use all the extra performance that will be on the table after Vulkan/MT is built.

Just be patient.  Anything else seems entitled.  So far ED have a VERY good track record of doing what they say they will.  It's just they also have a VERY good track record of over promising on release dates :).

 

Look...  What are your hardware specs and what are you trying to run?  Are you just assuming that because you can crank up the options in other games and get good FPS that this means the DCS engine is bad?

It's just not that simple.  Not even if those other games are Flight Sims.  This one is different.  That's not a cop out.  It's the truth.

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Yes, software can be optimized.

But hardware also can improve, and is improving again quite a lot with the next generation (both for GPU and CPU).

We have been stuck for almost two years with the current generation GPUs with little stock and high prices.  This is also very frustrating.

I think that ED would like to expand their customer base like any other company and are working towards this.

But let's face it, it's been difficult with the GPU crisis we had. I personally have been lucky to get my hands on a top tier GPU lats year and I am enjoying my flight session very much.

The hard fact is that even if the graphic engine was improved, that will not increase the resolution of my pimax 8K.  It will remain at 4k per eye.  And until HMDs match the pixel density of a 4k monitor, no graphic engine improvement will change that.

Software and hardware can improve.

Let's hope for decent GPU prices and good supply going forward also.😅

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On 6/23/2022 at 12:08 PM, M1Combat said:

They haven't gone silent. 

You just clearly aren't paying attention :).

 

Even to THIS thread where they have responded 😉...  in the same way I've seen them respond to this question dang near every time it's asked.  They will NOT give release dates any more (I'd love to go into why, but I won't...  you're welcome) so the only thing they have to share is that they're working on it.  Do you think that's a lie?

 

Three things...  Lets start with expectations...

One...  What makes you think that Vulkan and multi-threading are going to significantly impact YOU in DCS?

Two...  What do you think the overall immediate impact of Vulkan and Multi-threading will be in DCS in general?  

Three...  You realize these modules that have been releasing recently have been in development since about the same time or even before the engine team was put to work on the re-write?  I mean...  have you been around since before 2.1?  The Edge update?  That was needed before the vulkan/multi-thread update and I'm pretty sure the new Vulkan/MT stuff has been worked on since then or likely before.  It's been a subject for a "long" time friend :).  It's not like they were like "Hey...  lets attract MILLIONS of people by telling them that we'll update the engine...  then...  while they're waiting for THAT we'll just bait and switcheroo and sell them these super easy and quick to create modules to STEAL their MONEY!!!!  MWAHHH AHHH AHHH AHHHHH!!!!".  Come on...  Seriously...  This isn't some 12,000 employee AAA title developer that STILL just re-skins COD and FIFA 99 every effing year...  AND...  the software they're building is SIGNIFICANTLY more complex.

Oh and ONE MORE....

They DO actually create engine updates if you look around and know what to look for.  Have you taken off from one of those new fangled "Not perfectly flat" runways yet?  Yup...  that's a VERY important core engine update that actually affects more people than Vulkan/MT will for years.  Vulkan/MT will really just bring VR performance up to being equal to pancake performance (at best...  IMO...)...  then the devs and community will go about finding super cool ways to use all the extra performance that will be on the table after Vulkan/MT is built.

Just be patient.  Anything else seems entitled.  So far ED have a VERY good track record of doing what they say they will.  It's just they also have a VERY good track record of over promising on release dates :).

 

Look...  What are your hardware specs and what are you trying to run?  Are you just assuming that because you can crank up the options in other games and get good FPS that this means the DCS engine is bad?

It's just not that simple.  Not even if those other games are Flight Sims.  This one is different.  That's not a cop out.  It's the truth.

Do you work for ED? If not, don't speak for them and stop giving lectures to people and telling them how to feel. I understand your point of view but you're doing a lot of assuming and a lot of pandering. 

Sounds like you're dating half the DEV's for fk sake. 


Edited by HoBGoBLiNzx3
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Absolutely not.  Telling someone how to feel is a LONG ways off from explaining why I think their point of view is less than justifiable.  I'm not telling anyone what to feel or lecturing...  Look at all the question marks in my post.  I asked a bunch of questions to elicit thought.  VERY different from a lecture friend :).

I'll be the first to give the devs crap when they need it but I'll also give the rest of the community crap when I see a post that clearly indicates they've got an unrealistic and/or entitled approach to a specific subject and is also an undeserved punch in the gut to the devs.

Basically...  I'll say what I want.  I'm not on the dev's side or the community's side...  I'd rather there not even be sides ;).  If you don't like it...  Feel free to say so 😉

 

Also...  I think the ONLY objective thing I said in the whole post was "you're not paying attention"...  And based on the post I think that's not incorrect.  It's also fine :).  I don't mind really.  The entire rest of my post was simply me trying to point out a different point of view using a few facts and a few (admittedly extreme) hypothetical examples.  I see no problem with that...  I think it gets the point across.


Edited by M1Combat

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