Feedback Thread - F-14 Tomcat Patch June 22nd 2022

[Raviar]

its getting better and better

[captain_dalan]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

1. No, we should try to simulate it properly to get how it really was performing, not giving it additional computations that it maybe did not have IRL. If it was not optimal and best at the time, so it should not be simulated as such.
2. I hope the recent tweaks are just fighting with DCS limitations - not tweaking missile parameters - because 160nm shots look very questionable.

1. Good luck finding the relevant data and then presenting it on a public forum to justify your flight model.
2. That is exactly why you test and tweak. So you can reproduce desired behavior in an environment in which you lack exact data. Iterative method. 

[draconus]

1 minute ago, captain_dalan said:

1. Good luck finding the relevant data and then presenting it on a public forum to justify your flight model.
2. That is exactly why you test and tweak. So you can reproduce desired behavior in an environment in which you lack exact data. Iterative method. 

I'm not asking HB for anything to public. You seem to know the answer already if they have data or not.

[IronMike]

The lofts are within the realm of realistic, especially in the steepness, and it also makes sense to climb as much with motor burn as one can on long distance shots. There is not much that we can tweak with lofting btw, this tweak here was mainly meant to prevent overlofting, which until this patch it did. Here it achieves what it tried to do before and failed at it. The lofting also has nothing to do with the flight model btw. Nothing changed on the flight model or aerodynamics, etc. It just utilizes loft now more to its advantage rathen than to its disadvantage. 

[Burt]

Thanks for all the work and updates to the Tomcat , the best jet in DCS.

im trying to grasp the new overhaul with the wing sweep handle , spider gear ect.  I mainly fly the Tomcat with BFM and usually control the wing sweep manually but I want to fully understand the changes that have been applied to the wing sweep process. Is there any videos and information that will illustrate how to put the wing back into auto mode. I tried alittle last night and seemed that it has alittle delay when I go from manually 20 degrees the reset and I having issues understanding why I was getting a delay when trying to pull the wings back in a dive to gain quick speed. Would be nice if an experience DCS Tomcat pilot can make a short video on this  wing sweep overhaul update. I’m confused about is the spider gear the most.

Thanks again !

[Shadok]

ACLS landing still have issues with FFB stick, making the plane crashing in the water when engaging it.

[captain_dalan]

5 hours ago, draconus said:

I'm not asking HB for anything to public. You seem to know the answer already if they have data or not.

Let's say i do, or better yet, let's say they do. Let's say they are allowed to implement that knowledge, but they are stopped by the IP. Solution? You tweak the parameters to match what your paper simulation tells you the missile should be capable of. 

Let's say i don't and they don't. The solution? You tweak the parameters to match what 2nd hand data imply the missile should be capable of......

Patterns emerge..... 

[Salty Buckets]

20 hours ago, captain_dalan said:

We can never know. And we SHOULD not know. Such things should not be available to the public. EVER.
What we can and should do, is try to find the most optimum curve parameters that would give the missile best terminal properties for given kinetic capability. I just did some quick tests on my standard missions and my initial (based on very very limited sample size) impression is that the curve is much smoother and gives the missile much better kinetic properties when going active. Both against maneuvering and non-maneuvering targets. The missile is still well defeatable (i got a 50% pk in the limited tests) with proper missile defense.

Very true and very well spoken. Also, thank you lunaticfringe for that video, that does clear up some speculation that I had on my side. One of the issues I've been encountering with the -54C specifically is its vulnerability to go for chaff. I do not have a tacview to share since I'm slightly unfamiliar with how to find tacviews in DCS, but I usually fire at around 35-40k @mach .9-1 @20 miles, and the missile has enough energy to hit the target (and it does go active if I am firing in TWS), but, like you said captain_dalan, the missile is still well defeatable, especially to chaff from what I've found, which, especially with the -54C, is sad to see. I am, of course, not saying that all of my shots should hit at the parameters I'm firing at, yet 50% PK with the -54C? It's somewhat hard to not think something is abit funky.

[near_blind]

30 minutes ago, Salty Buckets said:

It's somewhat hard to not think something is abit funky

There's quite a lot funky with how DCS handles radars, missiles, and countermeasures. Unfortunately those values are not entirely up to HB to decide

[RustBelt]

7 hours ago, Burt said:

Thanks for all the work and updates to the Tomcat , the best jet in DCS.

im trying to grasp the new overhaul with the wing sweep handle , spider gear ect.  I mainly fly the Tomcat with BFM and usually control the wing sweep manually but I want to fully understand the changes that have been applied to the wing sweep process. Is there any videos and information that will illustrate how to put the wing back into auto mode. I tried alittle last night and seemed that it has alittle delay when I go from manually 20 degrees the reset and I having issues understanding why I was getting a delay when trying to pull the wings back in a dive to gain quick speed. Would be nice if an experience DCS Tomcat pilot can make a short video on this  wing sweep overhaul update. I’m confused about is the spider gear the most.

Thanks again !

So here’s how it works, now real AND in DCS:

The wings are controlled by the “Emergency handle” position. The Spider Clutch connects the “Emergency Handle” to the motor output of the Automatic wing position system. 
 

When you go full manual reversion by directly moving the “Emergency Handle” you disengage it the Spider Clutch. The Automatic system can’t drive the wings again until the Spider Clutch re-engages with the handle. If you have the wings at 20 when the system wants them back, you need to bring the handle back to match the alignment of the spider clutch. In the real plane thats easy because it will clunk back into the clutch and you’ll feel it. 
 

DCS now models this by creating a virtual detent position hiccup meaning you just pull back and it should hang at the spider clutch, then master reset. So you can then use the Throttle switch/Auto/Bomb again.

The “Emergency Handle” IS an emergency manual reversion mode. Wing position and the auto wing position miss match. The Captains bars reflect this as the system trips off and throws a caution light as well as changing from “auto” to “emergency”. So you need to reset the system.

[FlyingTaco21]

I don't see anything in the patch notes about afterburner but I'm getting (or think I'm getting an uncommanded switch to burner as part of the throttle axis now rather than with the button I have assigned to the afterburner gate... or maybe the animation for mil power was  changed to better reflect reality but the fuel consumption etc seems to suggest that it afterburner. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by FlyingTaco21

[Burt]

3 hours ago, RustBelt said:

So here’s how it works, now real AND in DCS:

The wings are controlled by the “Emergency handle” position. The Spider Clutch connects the “Emergency Handle” to the motor output of the Automatic wing position system. 
 

When you go full manual reversion by directly moving the “Emergency Handle” you disengage it the Spider Clutch. The Automatic system can’t drive the wings again until the Spider Clutch re-engages with the handle. If you have the wings at 20 when the system wants them back, you need to bring the handle back to match the alignment of the spider clutch. In the real plane thats easy because it will clunk back into the clutch and you’ll feel it. 
 

DCS now models this by creating a virtual detent position hiccup meaning you just pull back and it should hang at the spider clutch, then master reset. So you can then use the Throttle switch/Auto/Bomb again.

The “Emergency Handle” IS an emergency manual reversion mode. Wing position and the auto wing position miss match. The Captains bars reflect this as the system trips off and throws a caution light as well as changing from “auto” to “emergency”. So you need to reset the system.

Very nice of you I appreciate it. The spider gear and detent was throwing my off but I can see clearly now. Future update with the clunk sound would be nice lol. Thanks

Edited June 25, 2022 by Burt

[Spurts]

2 hours ago, FlyingTaco21 said:

I don't see anything in the patch notes about afterburner but I'm getting (or think I'm getting an uncommanded switch to burner as part of the throttle axis now rather than with the button I have assigned to the afterburner gate... or maybe the animation for mil power was  changed to better reflect reality but the fuel consumption etc seems to suggest that it afterburner. 

 

Fuel consumption tapes never display afterburner consumption

[FlyingTaco21]

4 hours ago, Spurts said:

Fuel consumption tapes never display afterburner consumption

Yeah I don't really use them . I didn't start looking at them until I noticed the odd behavior and thought the hashed areas indicated AB.  The rest still applies I hear the click normally associated with AB activation but its on the axis rather than with the AB gate button and I can't really tell when I am at mil. Either mil is in the same place but the animations have changed to resemble AB (though this wouldn't explain the bump/click that is the audio cue for the the AB). Prior to this mil was the upper stop of the physical throttle axis and I could only after afterburner by using my gate button.  There are supposed to be something like 5 zones but to my knowledge these are not in yet. Just AB or not. I have not played much for the past 3 weeks though, so I may have been from a previous patch as well. 

[draconus]

Taco, nothing was changed wrt AB. It ignites at the same point of the throttle. 5 zones AB apply only to the TF-30 engine. If you lost the AB gate function check again the Special Options > F-14 > Enable AB gate. The only indications of AB start are the "oompf" sounds and nozzle indicators.

[scommander2]

On 6/22/2022 at 8:42 PM, Whiskey11 said:

The AIM-54 loft profile is BEAUTIFUL now, just wish some of the other guidance quirks were worked out... specifically the lateral guidance being behind the "curve" so to speak.  It's a lot of fun watching an AIM-54A Mk60 loft to 170k feet and come down at Mach 3 on a target 120nmi away!   I posted more detailed feedback in the AIM-54 discussion, with track files and Tacview for your viewing pleasure

Cool, thaks for the feedback.  I see more happy Cats on air... ya....

[Karman]

The autopilot seems to have trouble holding altitude when turning, the acls does not engage when displayed and engaged. The heading selector knob does not work. Otherwise everything else seems to be a great job.

[Inf]

1 hour ago, Karman said:

The autopilot seems to have trouble holding altitude when turning

I saw a reply that there's a workaround for now -add some deadzone to your pitch and roll axes. I added a small one (5) and the autopilots work properly again.

[FlyingTaco21]

22 hours ago, draconus said:

Taco, nothing was changed wrt AB. It ignites at the same point of the throttle. 5 zones AB apply only to the TF-30 engine. If you lost the AB gate function check again the Special Options > F-14 > Enable AB gate. The only indications of AB start are the "oompf" sounds and nozzle indicators.

might be it if it reset that option  I was was in an A though went through the updates and didn't find anything after burners specific so I bet that is it. 

Edit: yep that was  it. 

Edited June 26, 2022 by FlyingTaco21

[draconus]

2 minutes ago, Karman said:

Thanks for the advice, but it doesn't change anything for me. Even with a curve of zero or 5, 10, 15, 20. Altitude hold does not hold in turns.

But you didn't follow the advice

[AvgeekJoe]

On 6/22/2022 at 2:25 PM, IronMike said:

Hi Grizzly, we noticed a regression with it as well, it seems to be related to not having set deadzones on roll and also pitch, or too little deadzone. We are not sure what caused but will have a fix by the next patch. See if increasing your deadzones just a little helps. Our apologies, we caught on to this too late.

Thanks for that as I was about to report in the same problems w/ the autopilot.  Rarely works for me now as I learn flying the F-14B.  At least my Thrustmaster HOTAS Warthog has a good trim tab.

Speaking of trim... when I take off it takes a lot of trim down to get the jet to stop wanting to naturally climb/pitch up even after setting it level on the HUD.

Finally, enjoy the screenshot:

[lunaticfringe]

12 hours ago, AvgeekJoe said:

Speaking of trim... when I take off it takes a lot of trim down to get the jet to stop wanting to naturally climb/pitch up even after setting it level on the HUD.

 

The HUD is not a primary flight instrument.  Level flight is found on the  VVI gauge. You can trim the HUD versus the horizon line once trimmed, but as the HUD cannot compensate for the relative pitch angle based on altitude and speed for level flight, you'd spend your time spinning the dial every time your current flight regime changes. 

[AvgeekJoe]

Thanks @lunaticfringe, learn more than one thing new every day learning to fly the Tomcat in DCS versus say... SF2 and FSX.  Thanks also for all your hard work on the beta tester team!

 

Love the Tomcat!

[Istari6]

18 hours ago, lunaticfringe said:

The HUD is not a primary flight instrument.  Level flight is found on the  VVI gauge. You can trim the HUD versus the horizon line once trimmed, but as the HUD cannot compensate for the relative pitch angle based on altitude and speed for level flight, you'd spend your time spinning the dial every time your current flight regime changes. 

Thank you for putting it so clearly.  I knew the HUD wasn't a primary instrument, but I was having a hard time explaining to friends (who are new Tomcat pilots) why the HUD is not a reference source for level flight.  

[Nealius]

Although unrealistic and a trigger for the gate keepers here, I tend to cruise in TO HUD mode since it repeats the VVI info.