Multiple bugs with the Seacat / Seadart missiles / launchers

[Rex854Warrior]

Hello,

Here are a few bugs and things I noticed when testing these new assets, thanks btw.

 

1- On the three new british frigates, the F12, F57 and F72, the Seacat launchers appear to have the wrong masking set up for them as they will fire into the radar mast in front relative to the ship. Track attachedSeacat_ship_hit.trk. Video attached.

2- Seacats seem to be fired just a touch too early, nearly missing a target if reached after engine cut off. Track attachedSeacat_short.trk. Video Attached. I have done more testing with different aspects for the target, same story.

3-Seacats when fired from the F12, the F57 or the F72 dip after launch. This becomes a particularily annoying issue when targeting low flying crafts such as ASMs. They slap themselves into the water. Track AttachedSeacat_water.trk. Video Attached.

4- The Seadart's booster is not present before launch and is not jettisonned after cut off but the entire model is WIP obviously. Video Attached.

5- The Seatcat is near instantly reloaded after a missile is fired, that seems odd ? It's along the lines of 10 seconds which seems really optimistic to say the least.

6- The Seacat is only fired at targets lower than 3000ft ish MSL, is this intended ? Missile has plenty of energy to reach higher altitudes.

 

That's it, thanks in advance and hopefully these can be resolved/answered.

Rex.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Rex854Warrior

[Northstar98]

1 hour ago, Rex854Warrior said:

Hello,

1- On the three new british frigates, the F12, F57 and F72, the Seacat launchers appear to have the wrong masking set up for them as they will fire into the radar mast in front relative to the ship. Track attachedSeacat_ship_hit.trk. Video attached.

I think this is a known issue - it will also fire despite the fire-control radar being masked by the mast.

1 hour ago, Rex854Warrior said:

3-Seacats when fired from the F12, the F57 or the F72 dip after launch. This becomes a particularily annoying issue when targeting low flying crafts such as ASMs. They slap themselves into the water. Track AttachedSeacat_water.trk. Video Attached.

The Seacat system we have is the GWS 22, which is radar-directed ACLOS (though likely has the previous SACLOS and/or MCLOS modes), it might be that it does this so they can be acquired and tracked by the Type 904 FCR.

Do note though that it was the first naval SAM system and if its real life performance is anything to go by, it should be pretty trash.

1 hour ago, Rex854Warrior said:

5- The Seatcat is near instantly reloaded after a missile is fired, that seems odd ? It's along the lines of 10 seconds which seems really optimistic to say the least.

Agreed - the thing is manually loaded, requiring the launcher to train appropriately and then 2 guys need to go to the magazine, bring it up to the launcher and load it on the launcher, all by hand.

Also for Sea Dart, the launcher should need to train to the load position in order to reload missiles.

1 hour ago, Rex854Warrior said:

6- The Seacat is only fired at targets lower than 3000ft ish MSL, is this intended ? Missile has plenty of energy to reach higher altitudes.

Not sure about its true performance, but the C:MO database states a 3500 ft maximum target altitude, my guess is that it has to do with the elevation limits of the fire-control system and not the missile.

[Rex854Warrior]

17 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

The Seacat system we have is the GWS 22, which is radar-directed ACLOS (though likely has the previous SACLOS and/or MCLOS modes), it might be that it does this so they can be acquired and tracked by the Type 904 FCR.

Do note though that it was the first naval SAM system and if its real life performance is anything to go by, it should be pretty trash.

I mean yes but I doubt this is expected behavior as the ASMs weren't even flying that low, they weren't sea skimming, and we know it's supposed to be able to perform that task. Perhaps not against P700s but I didn't find the closure speed to be the issue.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Rex854Warrior

[Gunfreak]

I got shot down by seacat going about 400knt and 400 feet. I was about 1nm going perpendicular to the ship. 

I redid the run this time going 450+knots and 200 feet same direction and distance. And the ship didn't fire.

[Harlikwin]

Per an SME  who served on Ariadne in the early 90s: He reckons it took roughly 10 minutes to reload the whole Sea Cat launcher (so 2.5 minutes per missile), don't forget you've got to train the launcher to a position suitable for reloading and then get 2 guys to go below decks, fetch a missile, bring it back up on a lift, mount it to the launcher and remove the cover.  He also said a typical load was 20 missiles total + 2 training rounds. (I think the current amount is 24, which is also reasonable)

At any rate the reload time (currently instant) needs to be changed to something more realistic.

A video of how the reload works is here at about the 1 min mark, and as you can see the actual reload is reasonably quick, but likely getting the missile from the magazine is likely not, nor is it shown in the vid.

 

[Northstar98]

Also to note - IRL (per the same SME) they fire all 4 (or complete the engagement) before reloading. Currently it reloads 1 by 1 (so fire 1, another gets reloaded). Which further reduces the reloading interval.

How it should work is that a salvo of 4 and then ~10 minutes to reload the launcher.

Edited November 18, 2022 by Northstar98

[George2772]

Hiya Guys, thanks for the input , we are aware of the points listed and we will address this in due course.

 

[twistking]

On 6/23/2022 at 7:19 PM, Northstar98 said:

[...]

Not sure about its true performance, but the C:MO database states a 3500 ft maximum target altitude, my guess is that it has to do with the elevation limits of the fire-control system and not the missile.

I cannot really believe that. 3500 feet would be less than the effective reach of the bofors guns. I found a source that says 3km which sounds more reasonable:
https://en.missilery.info/missile/seacat

Quote

Sea Cat short-range anti-aircraft missile system (SAM) is designed to fight low-level subsonic means of air attack at ranges up to 6 km and altitudes up to 3 km.

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by twistking

[Northstar98]

6 hours ago, twistking said:

I cannot really believe that. 3500 feet would be less than the effective reach of the bofors guns. I found a source that says 3km which sounds more reasonable:
https://en.missilery.info/missile/seacat

I'll ask my Dad, he was on Ariadne in the early 90s.

Edited August 5, 2022 by Northstar98

[twistking]

6 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

I'll ask my Dad, he was on Ariadne.

Great!

[Northstar98]

22 hours ago, twistking said:

Great!

He just got back to me - he said that in ideal conditions the best engagement envelope was 3000 - 16,500 ft in altitude. 16,500 ft being the maximum limit. Lower altitudes than 3000 ft are more subject to radar clutter (though there are back up modes using SACLOS with optical missile tracking (though radar missile tracking can also be used) and MCLOS), higher altitudes are weather dependent (I guess the limit is how well the director can track the missile).

He said that in his experience 10-12,000 ft is probably the most you could get out of it, at 3 km distance.

Edited August 6, 2022 by Northstar98

[twistking]

44 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

He just got back to me - he said that in ideal conditions the best engagement envelope was 3000 - 16,500 ft in altitude. 16,500 ft being the maximum limit. Lower altitudes than 3000 ft are more subject to clutter (though there are back up SACLOS with either optical or radar missile tracking and MCLOS), higher altitudes are weather dependent (I guess the limit is how well the director can track the missile).

He said that in his experience 10-12,000 ft is probably the most you could get out of it, at 3 km distance.

 

Interesting. I'll tag @George2772 so that those good information reaches the devs.

[Harlikwin]

One of CMs said there should be some fixes in the next patch. To the reload time at least. 

[Badger1-1]

Regarding the seadart, I was shot down by one in the M2000, but never got any warning… only N showed from time to time but no lock or launch warning.

 

it should give you one iirc, right?

[Northstar98]

On 1/15/2023 at 5:12 AM, Badger1-1 said:

Regarding the seadart, I was shot down by one in the M2000, but never got any warning… only N showed from time to time but no lock or launch warning.

 

it should give you one iirc, right?

Yes, the missile is SARH and uses a CW illumination radar, you should at least get a lock warning.