Accurate J-11A.

[FlankerFan35]

hushkit-net-2017-08-08-an-idiots-guide-to-chinese-flankers-.pdfHello all, I'd like to start by saying I'm an AVID redfor fan flying only redfor and even though that is the case I'm making this post FREE of bias and purely on my wish for a more realistic portrayal of what I've found and feel I know to be true about the J-11A aircraft. That being said some of what I'm about to present cannot be 100% confirmed but when you read through the information, I share here it matches up quite well with the historical events at the time between Russia and China, aircraft orders and deliveries between the two as well as weapons development at the time in China.

 

 

So, let's start with some history. In the mid 1970s China was growing unhappy with its aging fleet of MiGs, specifically the 19/21 (Chinese variants J-6/7) and tried developing a domestic upgrade which is said to have failed due to inability to procure suitable engines and was then abandoned.

 

 

In 1992 China decided to purchase 200 Su-27s from Russia under the designation Su-27SK and UBK, these aircraft arrived in four batches in 1992, 96, 99 and 2000. In 1996 China and Russia agreed to let China build Su-27s in China as the J-11, under this agreement some airframes would continue to be delivered and Shenyang Aircraft Corporation (SAC) would assemble other kits delivered from Russia and fitted with Russian avionics, radar (N001E and 001V, although some 3rd batch UBKs were rumored to be using the improved N001VE) and engines (AL-31F), production began in 1997. In total 105 kits were delivered, and 95 aircraft were delivered. These aircraft were Su-27SK (J-11) and the twin-seat variant the Su-27UBK, capable of carrying unguided rockets and bombs as well as the R-27R1/T1 and R-73. The acquisition of these aircraft gave the PLAAF the ability to fight in true BVR for the first time.

 

Later J-11s were upgraded with two color MFDs replacing the old monochrome radar scope, a new FCS allowing the usage of R-27ER1 and 77 missiles and an improved version of the N001E, the N001VE as China was not satisfied with the N001s inability to perform guided Air-2-Ground missions (one of the reason the Purchased the Su-30MKK) which increased lock range by 5km, MTI (Moving Terrain Indication), better look down ability specifically against helicopters and a new Baguet series BCVM-486-6 processor giving the aircraft the ability to track and fire on two targets at once with R-27/77 missiles, the aircraft that received were designated J-11A and first flew in 1999. In all 105 J-11s were produced with all 11s being upgraded to 11A standard before production stopped in favor of the 11B, which China began producing without license. After this rupture of trust Russia cut off support to China with their J-11As but began delivering the Su-30MKKs China had ordered in the year 2000, these aircraft arrived with R-27ER/77/73 capability and the further updated N001VEP which is why bought N001VEs for its J-11A fleet before these MKKs arrived to increase fleet commonality. Six years after J-11A production ended and five years after MKK deliveries began China introduced the PL-12 into service, a missile comparable to the AIM-120C-5 and much better than the R-77Es Russia had exported to the PLAAF forJ-11/MKKs and subsequently the PLAAF began working on fitting them onto the J-11A/MKK. I was not able to 100% confirm this has been done as of yet but the PL-8A/B has been fitted to both thus far.

 

Now with the history out of the way I'll explain my post. In DCS our J-11A isn't really a 11A at all, it's a reskinned 27S with R-77s popped on it. It has the same N001E (export of 001 of the 27S in DCS) (should have 001VE) and does not have the ability to track two targets at once, better look down capability or the ability to mount PL-8s and (debatably) PL-12s, both of which are in the game files.

 

My request to ED and Deka is the following: Give the J-11A N001VE and its features e.g., 5km greater lock range, ability to track and fire on two targets at once with R-27/77, improve ability to see targets against terrain and last but certainly not least the addition of the PL-8B and PL-12s to it's possible loadouts.

 

There are few 11As in service today and the ones that are are not using R-77Es, they are using PL-8B/12s. I'd also like to add a few more words, I'm aware you can't add everything the 11A had such as the second MFD, however the PL-8 and 12 already exist in game files and the ability to lock and fire on two targets is already present on the 29S who's radar is not so very different than the N001VE, therefore I believe you can accomplish these things. Since we don't yet have a FF Flanker this is the best we got and I think I and the community would really appreciate the difference, nuance and depth of difference between the 27S and J-11A and how that effects not just way we play but provides a greater challenge to our honorable opponents!.

 

I'm very excited for the replies from ED & Deka teams and comments from the community.

 

FlankerFan35

Sources:

Mech radar - Wikipedia

Shenyang J-11 - Wikipedia

Sukhoi Su-30MKK - Wikipedia

ChinaPerspectives-4.pdf

chinese-military-aviation-blogspot-com-p-fighters-ii-html.pdf

weaponsparade-com-weapon-shenyang-j-11-flanker-l-.pdf

 

 

Above from article PLA-AF and PLA-N Flanker Variants from Air Power Australia. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

hushkit-net-2017-08-08-an-idiots-guide-to-chinese-flankers-.pdf

Edited July 9, 2022 by FlankerFan35
spelling/additions

[Wyvern]

the J-11A we have currently, isnt the final product, from what ive read here in the J-11 section on the forum here, this stuff is already known, however, we got our J-11 currently to just be there as a chinese flanker and fill the gap until the advanced J-11 module, which is in work, but paused in favor of the JF-17.

The PL-8 and PL-12 thing was brought up by me and numerous other people, but were not going to get it anytime soon...
AG doesnt work on FC3 due to how its set up, so that isnt an option either.
although, i would be very interested in a response from Deka or Uboats, about the current progress of the J-11 module or other future plans

Edited June 24, 2022 by Wyvern

[FlankerFan35]

2 hours ago, Wyvern said:

the J-11A we have currently, isnt the final product, from what ive read here in the J-11 section on the forum here, this stuff is already known, however, we got our J-11 currently to just be there as a chinese flanker and fill the gap until the advanced J-11 module, which is in work, but paused in favor of the JF-17.

The PL-8 and PL-12 thing was brought up by me and numerous other people, but were not going to get it anytime soon...
AG doesnt work on FC3 due to how its set up, so that isnt an option either.
although, i would be very interested in a response from Deka or Uboats, about the current progress of the J-11 module or other future plans

 

Even with that said it'd be nice for even a few small changes to be made such as TWS2 and PL-8Bs at the very least since no gen 4 red is coming anytime soon at all. 

[uboats]

sorry, those materials have many wrong info. from what we know, j-11a with pl8/9/12 was never in service.

so we will not upgrade it with pl8/9/12, and j11a will remain as it is now in game

also without enough info to support upgrade of mfi55 from 558 ap3, it will not be considered in near future.

 

 

[FlankerFan35]

11 minutes ago, uboats said:

sorry, those materials have many wrong info. from what we know, j-11a with pl8/9/12 was never in service.

so we will not upgrade it with pl8/9/12, and j11a will remain as it is now in game

also without enough info to support upgrade of mfi55 from 558 ap3, it will not be considered in near future.

 

 

Can you send me any of your sources to read please? and what of 001VE?

Edited June 27, 2022 by FlankerFan35
additions

[uboats]

12 minutes ago, FlankerFan35 said:

Can you send me any of your sources to read please? and what of 001VE?

 

sorry, our source is not any documented ones.

[FlankerFan35]

15 minutes ago, uboats said:

sorry, our source is not any documented ones.

This applies for N001VE and TWS2 for R-27/77 as well? Most public domain info suggests 11As received this upgrade around the same time as new FCS for R-77. Wish I could see the info, but I understand if not.

Another thing is public info suggests 2 to 3 air divisions still operate a small about of J-11As although they are leaving quickly there are images of these aircraft with upgraded IFF and new MAWS systems. Although unconfirmed as I wrote in my post would it really seem likely that PLAAF would not have updated the 11A since 2000 to carry PL-8/12s as 77s were inferior and R-73s were mainly being delivered for the MKKs after China angered Russia with J-11B design which exclusively used PL-8s and now PL-10s and PL-12

And even if this is a "barebones" 11A without any upgrades I.E MAWS, new IFF, alleged PL-8B/12 (which I believe you intended) the 001VE and TWS2 may still be possible and not too difficult an addition?

Sorry if it's a lot.

Edited June 27, 2022 by FlankerFan35

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

The only Russian made Sukhoi we have seen flying with indigenous A2A weapons is the PLANAF Su-30MK2s

A special testing J-11A was modified to use the PL-12 according to uboats for testing purposes but who knows what that entails

Bellow are the aforementioned Su-30MK2s

 

 

 

These sources have lots of issues for example
The Wikipedia article on the Su-30MKK it claims that the first deliveries are with the N001VEP radar
Which is a small error compared to claiming later on that it is a PESA radar, when in reality is an MSA radar unique to the Su-30MK2

The MKK has the N001VE

A lot of these other mistakes come from canceled upgrade bids offered by Sukhoi and others or just other weapons expo speculation by defense writers taken at face value as capabilities already in the field.

@uboatsI'd like to know how's progress on the internal makka test bed

I know ED said we can't have it but can we see screenshots? Maybe in a bit propose ED to look it over again and see if it has potential as a module

Makaka is a favourite plane for some so I can't resist asking
 

[uboats]

11a that can launch r77 was not from Belarus or Ukraine, and without any cockpit modification, so easily supported based on current su-27 module.

we have no info about 001VE and TWS2, i guess it should have cockpit upgrade (mfi-55 should be included and also other changes)

[FlankerFan35]

10 hours ago, uboats said:

11a that can launch r77 was not from Belarus or Ukraine, and without any cockpit modification, so easily supported based on current su-27 module.

we have no info about 001VE and TWS2, i guess it should have cockpit upgrade (mfi-55 should be included and also other changes)

If you'd like the information on the 001VE I can more directly post it, the issue is you claim no J-11As ever used the 001VE without giving evidence (If it is for legal reasons, please say this).

China had the 11A receive the N001VE for multiple reason: they were publicly unhappy with the N001s inability to do any missions besides Air-2-Air missions particularly with guided Air-2-Ground weaponry, this is partly why they choose the N001VEP (4 A2A and 2 A2G targets) on their Su-30MKKs as China wanted a strike fighter (mostly anti-ship) and this multirole capability and to cheaply upgrade their J-11s and maintain fleet commonality they received the 001VE to compliment the 001VEP arriving shortly thereafter on the MKK. China ordered the MKK with these in 1998, the 11A rolled out with the new FCS/processor and 001VE in 1999 and a year later in 2000 the first 20 001VEP equipped MKKs were delivered. 

The information in the last sentence about the MKK cannot be 100% confirmed, however the dates match up, we know the 3 variations of the 001 radar were present on Chinese Flankers those being N001/E (Su-27SK and J-11), N001V/VE (J-11A), N001VEP (MKK).

I understand you cannot add in depth system operation on FC3 aircraft like MTI mapping, highly detailed MFI-55 but the features I'm asking for are already present in other FC3 aircraft TWS2 on 29S (symbology is nearly identical) for instance and increased track range by 5km. 

As for the upgrades coming from Belarus and Ukraine, not 100% but factories in Ukraine did often build components, less so for the 11 and more for MKK and other export Su-30 models.

To end with a question, when you say the 11A never used the VE, are you saying the Chinese upgraded the 001E with the ability to use R-77 but maintained the single target track? and if so, can you provide this information or is this also private?

Edited June 28, 2022 by FlankerFan35
CORRECTION

[uboats]

I never said

6 hours ago, FlankerFan35 said:

If you'd like the information on the 001VE I can more directly post it, the issue is you claim no J-11As ever used the 001VE without giving evidence (If it is for legal reasons, please say this).

China had the 11A receive the N001VE for multiple reason: they were publicly unhappy with the N001s inability to do any missions besides Air-2-Air missions particularly with guided Air-2-Ground weaponry, this is partly why they choose the N001VEP (4 A2A and 2 A2G targets) on their Su-30MKKs as China wanted a strike fighter (mostly anti-ship) and this multirole capability and to cheaply upgrade their J-11s and maintain fleet commonality they received the 001VE to compliment the 001VEP arriving shortly thereafter on the MKK. China ordered the MKK with these in 1998, the 11A rolled out with the new FCS/processor and 001VE in 1999 and a year later in 2000 the first 20 001VEP equipped MKKs were delivered. 

The information in the last sentence about the MKK cannot be 100% confirmed, however the dates match up, we know the 3 variations of the 001 radar were present on Chinese Flankers those being N001/E (Su-27SK and J-11), N001V/VE (J-11A), N001VEP (MKK) and somewhere down the line after the first 20-30 MKKs they were upgraded with Zhuk-MS Beetle radar and more down the line.

I understand you cannot add in depth system operation on FC3 aircraft like MTI mapping, highly detailed MFI-55 but the features I'm asking for are already present in other FC3 aircraft TWS2 on 29S (symbology is nearly identical) for instance and increased track range by 5km. 

As for the upgrades coming from Belarus and Ukraine, not 100% but factories in Ukraine did often build components, less so for the 11 and more for MKK and other export Su-30 models.

To end with a question, when you say the 11A never used the VE, are you saying the Chinese upgraded the 001E with the ability to use R-77 but maintained the single target track? and if so, can you provide this information or is this also private?

I never said "no J-11As ever used the 001VE".

If you think TWS2 is a reasonable and good addition to j11a, it's better to contact ED, since we don't make any fc3 avionics.

but what i heard is that early j11a with r77 has no tws, it's just fire control system to support launch r77, but nothing changed to radar.

Edited June 28, 2022 by uboats

[FlankerFan35]

2 hours ago, uboats said:

I never said

I never said "no J-11As ever used the 001VE".

If you think TWS2 is a reasonable and good addition to j11a, it's better to contact ED, since we don't make any fc3 avionics.

but what i heard is that early j11a with r77 has no tws, it's just fire control system to support launch r77, but nothing changed to radar.

 

I asked Chizh about these features and he told me to contact "Deka" as they (you) controlled the J-11A.

What I mean by TWS is same TWS as now except it can track 2 targets instead of one, if you'd like to see how it works, please try this feature on the MiG-29S.

On 29S TWS2 only works for R-77 but on 11A should be 77 and 27ER, I've been told 27ER firing on two targets is not possible right now in DCS, maybe u can confirm this.

Edited June 28, 2022 by FlankerFan35

[Wyvern]

You see, the problem is, they cant just add stuff to the avionics. Correct me if im wrong, but from what i have seen, if you want TWS 2, you have to sacrifice another radar mode. Since FC3 only has 3 slots for the radar as it seems: RWS, TWS and DataLink. Thats why the MiG-29 has no DL, because the slot is occupied by the TWS2. 

Means: Unless youre fine with sacrificing the DL, you wont have TWS2 on it. 
Thats also the reason why you cant add Shkval or laser to the Flankers or anything similar, because the EOS is taking up the optical system slot.

I agree on the PL-12 and PL-8 thing, it wouldnt be a problem gameplay wise. However if uboats says it cant be done from Deka's side, then it cant be done most likely. 
I know there was an module in work, with an advanced cockpit, but i havent seen if there is any progress.

On that note however, is it 100% necessairy to have accurate RWR and Radar simulation? from what i know, only the F-14 and MiG-21 have accurate modeling here?
And when the F-18 released, the MFDs also had placeholders, due to missing info

Edited June 28, 2022 by Wyvern
typo

[okopanja]

36 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

You see, the problem is, they cant just add stuff to the avionics. Correct me if im wrong, but from what i have seen, if you want TWS 2, you have to sacrifice another radar mode. Since FC3 only has 3 slots for the radar as it seems: RWS, TWS and DataLink. Thats why the MiG-29 has no DL, because the slot is occupied by the TWS2. 

There is no technical reason why this would be the reason. Most likely reason is that early Mig-29 did not have DL, but rather GCI DL called Lazur. I am not an expert on Mig-29, but very likely the later versions had it. In fact I am doubtful about the accuracy of the Mig-29С in game. Having support for 77s and TWS2, would likely mean that it also had real DL.

39 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

Means: Unless youre fine with sacrificing the DL, you wont have TWS2 on it. 
Thats also the reason why you cant add Shkval or laser to the Flankers or anything similar, because the EOS is taking up the optical system slot.

Again, wrong Su-27 was originally purposed built for A-A, later version added more features. Besides Shkval looks down, where EOS looks mostly level and up plus some unobstructed areas low.

42 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

I agree on the PL-12 and PL-8 thing, it wouldnt be a problem gameplay wise. However if uboats says it cant be done from Deka's side, then it cant be done most likely. 
I know there was an module in work, with an advanced cockpit, but i havent seen if there is any progress.

I would say ED would need to make decision, followed by Deka.

 

43 minutes ago, Wyvern said:

On that note however, is it 100% necessairy to have accurate RWR and Radar simulation? from what i know, only the F-14 and MiG-21 have accurate modeling here?
And when the F-18 released, the MFDs also had placeholders, due to missing info

As far I know none of them are properly modeled. People building cockpits are very well aware of this. In fact the way it is modeled is so simple and deterministic that you can build a "radar" based on it. To prevent cheating server admin must prohibit the export of sensor data. If you see a server without one being disabled, likely there are people out there abusing this model.

However, in Mig-21 there are only 4 lights modeling up to 8 directions, so the display itself make is accurate at the end.

Similarly SPO-15 (flanker, 29, su-25) in all others is limited in terms of how much angles it can show you, and likely they correspond to what the actual device is capable of IRL.

[Mig-29K]

Вообще весь модуль надо переделывать полностью

[FlankerFan35]

1 hour ago, Mig-29K said:

Вообще весь модуль надо переделывать полностью

I agree, but since that won't happen for YEARS at least the least Deka and ED could do is add some of its features instead of a cheap reskinning of the Su-27S and adding 77s.

[Satarosa]

J-11: N001 radar (engage one target at a time, detection range ~110km), old monochrome radar scope,AAM= R-27ER, R-27ET.

 

J-11A: N001VE radar (engage two targets simultaneously, detection range ~120km), two color MFDs in the cockpit,AAM= +R-77.

 

j-11B: PD radar Type 1493 (engage 4 target simultaneously, detection range ~150km),featuring 5 MFDs and a new wide-angle holographic HUD,AAM= PL-8, PL-12, PL-15.

 

 

 

 

 

IN DCS WORLD WE GOT MORE LIKE A J-11 BUT THEY CALL THIS A J-11A lol

 

 

- They can change the name and weapons, or they can change the aircraft cockpit, avionic and radar perf..

[FlankerFan35]

4 hours ago, Satarosa said:

J-11: N001 radar (engage one target at a time, detection range ~110km), old monochrome radar scope,AAM= R-27ER, R-27ET.

 

J-11A: N001VE radar (engage two targets simultaneously, detection range ~120km), two color MFDs in the cockpit,AAM= +R-77.

 

j-11B: PD radar Type 1493 (engage 4 target simultaneously, detection range ~150km),featuring 5 MFDs and a new wide-angle holographic HUD,AAM= PL-8, PL-12, PL-15.

 

 

 

 

 

IN DCS WORLD WE GOT MORE LIKE A J-11 BUT THEY CALL THIS A J-11A lol

 

 

- They can change the name and weapons, or they can change the aircraft cockpit, avionic and radar perf..

I really hope @uboatsor someone at ED reads and looks into this, every article and bit of public info demonstrates the 11A using the N001VE with increased detection and lock range, ability to fire on 2 targets simultaneously and better look down ability.

 

If these features aren't possible due to game limitations this is a different issue to be resolved asap. But if we are in fact incorrect in wanting these features, please show proof.

 

Also some claims have been made such as "Do you want a second display, MFI-55, not possible etc etc" ideally yes, but let us please not use this as a reason not to add TWS2/N001VE features as it is clear having some features added (R-77) and others left out (2 MFD, N001VE) is ok suggesting both devs teams should perhaps be fine with adding TWS2, upgraded radar parameters while not adding a second MFD or changing the display colors.

[Bunny Clark]

6 hours ago, FlankerFan35 said:

If these features aren't possible due to game limitations this is a different issue to be resolved asap.

Honestly, the addition of the J-11 by Deka is the most development that's happened to any of the FC3 modules in a decade. These are old modules that are largely abandoned, ED isn't going to do anything with them, and I suspect that Deka has some fairly severe limitations with what the FC3 framework can handle.

Some new avionics may be possible, the F-22 mod added MFDs with custom UI and the J-11 is basically a mod. But I suspect that at some point it just isn't worth it trying to work with code that is older than DCS World itself. 

[FlankerFan35]

4 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

Honestly, the addition of the J-11 by Deka is the most development that's happened to any of the FC3 modules in a decade. These are old modules that are largely abandoned, ED isn't going to do anything with them, and I suspect that Deka has some fairly severe limitations with what the FC3 framework can handle.

Some new avionics may be possible, the F-22 mod added MFDs with custom UI and the J-11 is basically a mod. But I suspect that at some point it just isn't worth it trying to work with code that is older than DCS World itself. 

Realism should always be worth it, especially when these are the only true red aircraft in game.

[Bunny Clark]

4 hours ago, FlankerFan35 said:

Realism should always be worth it

Sure, but you can say that about anything, at some point you need to start making priorities. Diverting dev resources away from other projects to make a mod-quality low-fidelity J-11 may not be worth it. Especially if there's a chance for a full-fidelity J-11 in the future. 

[FlankerFan35]

20 hours ago, Bunny Clark said:

Sure, but you can say that about anything, at some point you need to start making priorities. Diverting dev resources away from other projects to make a mod-quality low-fidelity J-11 may not be worth it. Especially if there's a chance for a full-fidelity J-11 in the future. 

If we knew when the time was, I'd have no issue waiting, however with that time being anywhere from 5-15yrs (who can say for sure) and modules such as the EF and 15E around the corner and basic features of a specific variant of the J-11 (not the 27SK or the J-11 but the 11A) missing, for the health of the game something will need to budge.

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

@uboats

 

I wonder if Deka would fix the J-11A's DL to work like the IRL TKS-2M.

That is with both peer to peer and fighter to fighter sharing between Flankers between players

 

Since the MFI-55 update can't happen for documentation reasons.

 

At least we have documentation on this capability, ED is too busy it seems I wonder if Deka could fix it.

Edited July 3, 2022 by TaxDollarsAtWork

[Wyvern]

As i said many times and got told "No" by uboats, id just say, add PL-12 on the same pylons as the R-77 and PL-8s on the same pylons as the R-73 (except of wingtip)

Its not the most accurate and 100% realistic, but we need an RedAir improvement.

 

Who knows, maybe after the Jeff is out of EA, work will continue on the J-11

Until then, there is nothing we can expect.

It pisses me off too, but Deka isnt a huge company, they have to set priorities, which is the Jeff.

 

And i also was talking to uboats to at least add some user made skins, for now, not even that will happen. So yeah, the J-11 wont change at all for now.v

[Coxy_99]

Would rather have realistic than fantasy payload.

@TaxDollarsAtWork Would ED have to let DEKA to there FC3 code? To even make that possible or ED come to an agreement? As its not DEKA's code.