Effect of Propeller on Ruder

[grafspee]

I think Yak-52 is pretty common plane, i will try find some real aerobatics recordings, but i don't have yak-52 as module to compare.

[BIGNEWY]

On 6/27/2022 at 8:34 PM, fapador said:

No its not fine. Hate to break it for ya but in fact some Fm's in DCS aren't even ballpark...  In fact,  my suspicions have been confirmed through  discussions with pilots, both high rank militants and  civil aviation people... , not with some random enthusiasts in cyberspace saying otherwise...

 

You make some big claims, but dont have any evidence to support it. Feelings just wont cut it here, we have very experienced pilots who are devs working on these aircraft flight models, you wont find a better simulation anywhere else. 

[fapador]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

You make some big claims, but dont have any evidence to support it. Feelings just wont cut it here, we have very experienced pilots who are devs working on these aircraft flight models, you wont find a better simulation anywhere else. 

I acknowledge, but I assure you it ain't a feeling... 

It will also be a long subject conversation I am only willing to do via PM or email out of respect of ED. 

[BIGNEWY]

22 minutes ago, fapador said:

I acknowledge, but I assure you it ain't a feeling... 

It will also be a long subject conversation I am only willing to do via PM or email out of respect of ED. 

please feel free to PM me with your evidence and track replay examples.

Thank you.

[fapador]

@DD_Fenrir In regards to comments about the T-6 not handling like a WWII fighter...

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by fapador

[Ala13_ManOWar]

17 hours ago, fapador said:

@Ala13_ManOWar Yah, like DCS PFM's aren't actually tables based  effects,  tuned and baked accordingly... but perhaps you are too benighted to know that. 

Yeah, probably I'm the one, right .

[fapador]

On 6/29/2022 at 8:15 PM, Ala13_ManOWar said:

Yeah, probably I'm the one, right .

Thats right.

For the benighted...  Even a bonanza can hammerhead... better

 

Check also 4:07 of video

Edited July 21, 2022 by fapador

[RentedAndDented]

Logic isn't your strong suit much is it? The owner of ED is a warbird pilot who has a pretty good clue of how these things handle. Even then, it's an imperfect simulation as it must be, and you're laser focusing on one area you think is wrong.

As has been said, they're all different airframes. You are simplifying the aerodynamics of it to a completely pointless degree.

Maybe.....just maybe....the pilots in the videos you post are more skilled than you?

[Ala13_ManOWar]

11 hours ago, RentedAndDented said:

Logic isn't your strong suit much is it? The owner of ED is a warbird pilot who has a pretty good clue of how these things handle. Even then, it's an imperfect simulation as it must be, and you're laser focusing on one area you think is wrong.

As has been said, they're all different airframes. You are simplifying the aerodynamics of it to a completely pointless degree.

Maybe.....just maybe....the pilots in the videos you post are more skilled than you?

Let it be, that hammerhead in the video is pretty much the same you can do in a P-51 in DCS, but hammerheads have a trick, you must do it perfectly to the numbers or you end up in whatever but a hammerhead at all. You have to use a certain engine while climbing to the vertical, you have to step in the rudder (it depends on whether you do towards torque or against torque either) at a certain exact speed while still climbing, a second sooner or later and hammerhead is not happening. But he knows better, so let him live in his fap-adorian wet dreams of superiority, he's happy there, ignorance is bliss  .

[[AUSSIE]t0min8t0r]

On 6/29/2022 at 4:36 AM, fapador said:

@DD_Fenrir Extra 300 Rudder Area : 0.51 m^2

                        BF-109 K-4 Rudder Area : 0.57 m^2

                        P51D Rudder Area : 0.96 m^2

                        Spitfire MkIx Rudder (Pointy type) Area : 0.99 m^2

 

It actually doesn't take much... Any serious pilot,  with experience should be able to confirm  that WWII birds in DCS are notoriously weak in Yaw and there is NO way they handled or handle like that...

I am not saying they should hammerhead like an extra 300 but being almost 4x times weaker in yaw authority  is definitely not right...

 

dude you cant compare a modern day acro plane to a ww2 fighter plane XD the weight difference's alone should throw you off from this debate 

22 hours ago, fapador said:

Thats right.

For the benighted...  Even a bonanza can hammerhead... better

 

Check also 4:07 of video

 

could just as easily pull this off in any warbird i think this is a pilot issue not a FM issue

[fapador]

14 minutes ago, [AUSSIE]t0min8t0r said:

dude you cant compare a modern day acro plane to a ww2 fighter plane XD the weight difference's alone should throw you off from this debate 

Look T-6 texan video.... Its simillar weight plane.

8 hours ago, Ala13_ManOWar said:

. But he knows better, so let him live in his fap-adorian wet dreams of superiority, he's happy there, ignorance is bliss

hahaha xD. And I will let you leave your DCS dream of realistic flight behavior simulator...

 

Also P51 in DCS is the least wrong flight model in DCS IMAO  and the only one I am able to somehow pull a hammerhead.

Edited July 21, 2022 by fapador

[fapador]

20 hours ago, RentedAndDented said:

The owner of ED is a warbird pilot who has a pretty good clue of how these things handle. Even then, it's an imperfect simulation as it must be, and you're laser focusing on one area you think is wrong.

Means nothing. Polychop, for example tuned SA342 Gazelle with the help of REAL pilots, yet its flight model is broken as hell and everybody knows that. ED also didn't do anything to remove or refund the product and still at least 5 years without fix.

 

The thing is I know this behavior is wrong, I don't  think..... 

9 minutes ago, [AUSSIE]t0min8t0r said:

dude you cant compare a modern day acro plane to a ww2 fighter plane XD the weight difference's alone should throw you off from this debate 

Bonanza is not acro plane.. T-6 Texan wasn't designed as acrobatic plane either...

[fapador]

Saying that a WWII warbird cant hammerhead is absurd and indicates complete topic ignorance.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

Who said they can't? They pretty much can as almost any aircraft I guess, but you have to practise it to master, like you have to do IRL as opposed to other games were you can do it straight out of the box. Sincerely that little detail alone only tells me about how accurate behaviour is in DCS, but whatever .

[grafspee]

I remember someone who just bought DCS P-51D posted, that FM of P-51 is BS because he watched recording of ex p-51 ace doing aerobatics in p-51 and he could not replicate those aerobatics at first try. Some ppl expect to be Ace driver since first minute of the flight time. Truth is that to become ace you need a lot of training, how ppl can expect to perform those aerobatics perfectly after 5 min in the plane, this is very odd for me. I am perfection this game sucks 

Edited July 23, 2022 by grafspee

[Razor18]

On 7/22/2022 at 12:26 AM, fapador said:

Look T-6 texan video.... Its simillar weight plane.

hahaha xD. And I will let you leave your DCS dream of realistic flight behavior simulator...

 

Also P51 in DCS is the least wrong flight model in DCS IMAO  and the only one I am able to somehow pull a hammerhead.

 

Can you describe, how do you make a hammerhead, and where does it go wrong for you and how? Sorry for being late for the party...

[Yo-Yo]

Stall turns are prohibited for the most of warbirds since they entered service. Was it a mistake of WWII test pilots?
By the way, DCS Yak-52 having the same FM basics does it exactly as it does in RL.

I have read a lot of reasons now why warbirds are not Extra, Yak-52 or even Texan, but I am probably missed the couple of really important factors.

Anyway, the stall turns are possible in DCS taking in mind one of these factors.

 

 

 

 

[Doughguy]

Not really sure whats happening in the stall turn video?

[Ala13_ManOWar]

1 hour ago, Doughguy said:

Not really sure whats happening in the stall turn video?

An alleged impossible hammerhead happens .

[Doughguy]

vor 36 Minuten schrieb Ala13_ManOWar:

An alleged impossible hammerhead happens .

Lol.

Not what i meant tho. Video is cut in an unfavourable way... pony goes up fades to black *magic* cuts back pony goes down.

[Ala13_ManOWar]

42 minutes ago, Doughguy said:

Lol.

Not what i meant tho. Video is cut in an unfavourable way... pony goes up fades to black *magic* cuts back pony goes down.

Video doesn't fade out, maybe the camera could be in a better position, right, but you see the aircraft all the way up, turn with rudder, and down . In Dora video there's a better camera angle for sure.

[Doughguy]

hm strange. rewatched it on my pc.

some wonky things happening on my mobile...

[fapador]

@Yo-YoBoth fw's are currently impossible to hammerhead in dcs. Also 109 has unreasonable weak inflight rudder and is also surprisingly  difficult for me to hammerhead. I don't know how it happens so cleanly in that video, as I always end in uncontrolled  excessive yaw induced spin rolls when I kick the rudder, perhaps in video rudder is feeded progreessively and very slowly,.... a technique that doesn't apply in real life.  Its also the only way that works in dcs to  somehow perform hammerhead maneuvers, as kicking the rudder will upset the airplane so unrealistically much, that it will enter inverted spins.

P47 nope ... Spitfire,  cant hammerhead that either. DCS P-51 has the best flight model in my opinion and is the only one I can short of hammerhead. Sometimes  I find it unintuitive . As for the Yak-52, yes it hammerheads easily but  even with the updates it has a long way to come to be a good accurate flight model.

There is also no apparent reason why yak-52 hammerheads that easily while its so hard to do it in the warbirds. 

Edited July 27, 2022 by fapador

[fapador]

There is also this other thread from an other real pilot, having experience in heavy prop planes stating the exact same observations like me.

23 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

Stall turns are prohibited for the most of warbirds since they entered service. Was it a mistake of WWII test pilots?
By the way, DCS Yak-52 having the same FM basics does it exactly as it does in RL.

I have read a lot of reasons now why warbirds are not Extra, Yak-52 or even Texan, but I am probably missed the couple of really important factors.

Anyway, the stall turns are possible in DCS taking in mind one of these factors.

He also says that currently the only airplane that stall spins realistically in DCS is f-86 sabre... and also finds P-51 sub-par.

Edited July 27, 2022 by fapador

[Hobel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb fapador:

Both fw's are currently impossible to hammerhead in dcs. Also 109 has unreasonable weak inflight rudder and is also surprisingly  difficult for me to hammerhead. I don't know how it happens so cleanly in that video, as I always end in uncontrolled  excessive yaw induced spin rolls when I kick the rudder, perhaps in video rudder is feeded progreessively and very slowly,.... a technique that doesn't apply in real life.  Its also the only way that works in dcs to  somehow perform hammerhead maneuvers, as kicking the rudder will upset the airplane so unrealistically much, that it will enter inverted spins.

P47 nope ... Spitfire,  cant hammerhead that either. DCS P-51 has the best flight model in my opinion and is the only one I can short of hammerhead. Sometimes  I find it unintuitive . As for the Yak-52, yes it hammerheads easily but  even with the updates it has a long way to come to be a good accurate flight model.

There is also no apparent reason why yak-52 hammerheads that easily while its so hard to do it in the warbirds. 

So especially with the p47 and spitfire a hammerhead feels very good in my opinion, with the k4 in the example it is much more difficult.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 27, 2022 by Hobel