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Do I need to Boresight again due to TrackIR Recentering?


Fakum

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I initially boresight during startup, then go on about my business. During the sortie, I typically have to reset my TrackIR often due to all of the head movement. Does that affect the initial boresight setting? I ask because when I eventually WAS the gun, and I either set the range to say 800 or even AUTO, I find myself way off from where the crosshairs are compared to where the rounds are landing? I thought that setting AUTO range would resolve this, even when I reset to AUTO in the process of the using the GUN (not switching weapons). Thanks for any advise.

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Yes I would certainly think that could affect your boresight setting.

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Well, in theory, you shouldn't. 

Boresighting serves to give the system known reference point from which to track in helicopter. TIR is not helicopter system, it's user-end tool. 

Same as how, with hot helicopter, your head can point one way, in game LOS goes the other and systems track just fine.

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7 minutes ago, admiki said:

Boresighting serves to give the system known reference point from which to track in helicopter. TIR is not helicopter system, it's user-end tool.

I agree with admiki. It would be different if TrackIR would be part of the helicopter system but it's not.

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4 minutes ago, admiki said:

TIR is not helicopter system, it's user-end tool.

Exactly.

Boresighting corelates the position, where the aircraft thinks the helmet is with the actual position of the helmet inside the cockpit. TIR recentering only changes the position of your virtual head inside the cockpit. Makes no difference, if you just move your virtual head around or let TIR do it.

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I agree with @admikias it is not a system inside the heli, so you shouldn't need to re-calibrate your boresight.

Quote

when I eventually WAS the gun, and I either set the range to say 800 or even AUTO, I find myself way off from where the crosshairs are compared to where the rounds are landing

About the point that you mention above, I think It comes from the effects of heli movement, elevation, and distance. That's My guess is based on the experience i've had.

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3 hours ago, Fakum said:

I initially boresight during startup, then go on about my business. During the sortie, I typically have to reset my TrackIR often due to all of the head movement. Does that affect the initial boresight setting? I ask because when I eventually WAS the gun, and I either set the range to say 800 or even AUTO, I find myself way off from where the crosshairs are compared to where the rounds are landing? I thought that setting AUTO range would resolve this, even when I reset to AUTO in the process of the using the GUN (not switching weapons). Thanks for any advise.

Nope, not at all. DCS knows nothing about your TIR centre position. All the boresight does is make the (simulated) aircraft know an arbitrary starting points for your (simulated) head. 

TIR re-centre function changes how your real head maps onto your simulated head, so will in no way affect the boresight within DCS.

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Ok then, I will go with the notion that TrackIR has no impact and do some testing. If this is truly the case I would then wonder what the point is of boresighting if its going to result in slop anyway? Maybe it makes it less sloppy? LOL,,,,,,,,,

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@Floyd1212 yes, I am aware of that, and I typically do a cold start, so I do a Boresight. Interesting though, I created a quick mission yesterday so I could start testing this and I created the Apache as a HOT start. When I got in the pit of a hot apache, it wouldnt let me Boresight? Hmmmmm.

@Caldera I also recenter often. I will be trying to experiment more today to see if the constant recentering has an impact. My initial testing yesterday of about 5 minutes switching the gun from 800 to AUTO range was just fine compared to what I was experiencing over the last couple weeks in multiplayer.

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Firstly, apologies to everyone who has already responded with answers here.

In reading the thread I just did not understand the Track IR to IHADSS boresight relationship.  I use a DELANCLiP with OpenTrack (so similar to Track IR). I have no experience with VR. I see most folk say that there no relationship between TIR and Boresighting

In trying to understand I found some, to me anyway, good information in other threads . This helped me understand. I have included this detail here in-case its helps other people like me:

Firstly there is a good thread with more detail explaining Boresighting and Track IR here : https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300729-pilot-gun-aim-is-way-off-after-cold-start-hot-start-is-fine-tracks-included/   So head position adjustment by TIR (or Delanclip or whatever) is separate. That said, as BIGNEWY says "the point I am trying to make especially for users who have headtracking is to ensure your physical head position is also calibrated with your headtracking, before doing the AH-64D boresight procedure"  

When boresighting one adjusts the head position in the Apache using the game's commands. See Northstar98 comment here https://forum.dcs.world/topic/295125-boresight-with-3dof-head-tracking/

 

 


Edited by Dallas88B

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52 minutes ago, Dallas88B said:

Firstly, apologies to everyone who has already responded with answers here.

In reading the thread I just did not understand the Track IR to IHADSS boresight relationship.  I use a DELANCLiP with OpenTrack (so similar to Track IR). I have no experience with VR. I see most folk say that there no relationship between TIR and Boresighting

There is no relationship. TIR just helps you move your ingame LOS. DCS does not care if you move your head via TIR, keyboard, hats/buttons.

In trying to understand I found some, to me anyway, good information in other threads . This helped me understand. I have included this detail here in-case its helps other people like me:

Firstly there is a good thread with more detail explaining Boresighting and Track IR here : https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300729-pilot-gun-aim-is-way-off-after-cold-start-hot-start-is-fine-tracks-included/   So head position adjustment by TIR (or Delanclip or whatever) is separate. That said, as BIGNEWY says "the point I am trying to make especially for users who have headtracking is to ensure your physical head position is also calibrated with your headtracking, before doing the AH-64D boresight procedure"  

When boresighting one adjusts the head position in the Apache using the game's commands. See Northstar98 comment here https://forum.dcs.world/topic/295125-boresight-with-3dof-head-tracking/

I suspect reason for this is that it is easier to get exact, steady position you want when boresigthing. 

Easiest test is to boresight and fire gun to see if it matches.

Then set your TIR that when you are looking straight at the screen, in game LOS is, for example, 45° to the right and 30°down. Test your gun again and see if boresighting changed.

 

 

 

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22 hours ago, Fakum said:

I initially boresight during startup, then go on about my business. During the sortie, I typically have to reset my TrackIR often due to all of the head movement. Does that affect the initial boresight setting? I ask because when I eventually WAS the gun, and I either set the range to say 800 or even AUTO, I find myself way off from where the crosshairs are compared to where the rounds are landing? I thought that setting AUTO range would resolve this, even when I reset to AUTO in the process of the using the GUN (not switching weapons). Thanks for any advise.

Fakum, the other thing that might be useful here is posting a short video or track of what is happening to you. A few people have had issues (especially with the gun) due to thinking it is supposed to be more accurate than it is. The quote effective range against point targets is 1500m, and that's engaging with TADS. It's called the Area Weapon System for a reason If you are used to the gun on the Ka-50, or the A-10 the little 30mm under the Apache is going to seem like it's got all the accuracy of a blunderbuss from 1750...

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2 hours ago, Scaley said:

A few people have had issues (especially with the gun) due to thinking it is supposed to be more accurate than it is. The quote effective range against point targets is 1500m, and that's engaging with TADS. It's called the Area Weapon System for a reason If you are used to the gun on the Ka-50, or the A-10 the little 30mm under the Apache is going to seem like it's got all the accuracy of a blunderbuss from 1750...

Most of the misconceptions are from people confusing accuracy with dispersion. I know often times people use accuracy when describing dispersion, but they are very distinct quantities when talking about effective ranges and area vs point weapon systems.

The gun is very accurate when targeted with the TADS and an accurate ranging to the target, but not accurate when being aimed by the HMD, even with an accurate range to the target.
Aircraft velocities, target velocities, and range corrections are applied when using the TADS, whereas only range correction is provided when using the HMD, not to mention the head is not gyro-stabilized, and the aiming reticle itself prevents precise enough targeting since it has no optical zoom. The TADS is like using a gyro-stabilized high-powered scope, but the HMD is like using a holographic sight with no magnification.

The dispersion of the AH-64D gun is what makes it an area weapon system, not its accuracy. Having the ability to engage a point target with an area weapon system is a function of both it's accuracy and it's dispersion, but the dispersion is fairly authentic to real-life. The addition of the TSE addressed the accuracy problems of the gun when targeted using the TADS, but the accuracy when aiming the gun with the HMD has been pretty authentic since day one. It's essentially like aiming a door gun on a Huey. Granted, there are ways to ensure the ranging is working better for you based on what your range source is (Nav, Auto, or Manual), but it still comes down to firing, observing impacts, and walking the rounds onto target with manual corrections of your head/HMD reticle.


Edited by Raptor9

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Just adding to what Raptor describes.

I have learned that when using the TADS to get reliable get hits with the gun I turn on LMC (I am guessing that TSE is automatic) and the laser.  I stabilize on the target before firing.  I try to shoot at not much more than 2000m.  Often just out of range of for example BTR-80's.  Very often I get kills with 2x10 round bursts.  At 2500m I have shot 100 rounds and only done minor damage.  There is a sweet spot there that needs to be taken advantage of.

Caldera

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6 hours ago, Dallas88B said:

Firstly, apologies to everyone who has already responded with answers here.

In reading the thread I just did not understand the Track IR to IHADSS boresight relationship.  I use a DELANCLiP with OpenTrack (so similar to Track IR). I have no experience with VR. I see most folk say that there no relationship between TIR and Boresighting

In trying to understand I found some, to me anyway, good information in other threads . This helped me understand. I have included this detail here in-case its helps other people like me:

Firstly there is a good thread with more detail explaining Boresighting and Track IR here : https://forum.dcs.world/topic/300729-pilot-gun-aim-is-way-off-after-cold-start-hot-start-is-fine-tracks-included/   So head position adjustment by TIR (or Delanclip or whatever) is separate. That said, as BIGNEWY says "the point I am trying to make especially for users who have headtracking is to ensure your physical head position is also calibrated with your headtracking, before doing the AH-64D boresight procedure"  

When boresighting one adjusts the head position in the Apache using the game's commands. See Northstar98 comment here https://forum.dcs.world/topic/295125-boresight-with-3dof-head-tracking/

 

 

 

Well JEEPERS! I went to that other link and found something that I was apparently overlooking for months! When I boresight, its always with the HMD OFF (No Crosshairs) I have always just moved my head until the circles were completely concentric, then SET it. i never used the HMD cross hairs in addition as described in that other thread.

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