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Put It Down!! or In-Mission Changing of Waypoint Elevation


Captain Orso

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This is all relative to a running mission, for example in MP.

You have a waypoiont, which is where your target it located--very friendly of the creator to give you this oh, so important tool for finding the enemy. The creator, however made the mistake of not putting the waypoint on the ground where the target is. Instead it is at 15,000 feet where you are supposed to be flying.

When you designate the waypoint as target, your TGP looks up in the air like a day-dreaming child. What to do. Labels are off, Units are hidden on the F10 map. You are in the mountains, so the ground level below the waypoint could be anywhere between 1000 and 3000 feet. The target is a Grisom, so you can't just fly over it and put a markpoint down to use that as a reference for the waypoint, bc you want to get back home for a cold one.

What is the simplest method of getting the waypoint onto the ground, where it belongs?

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

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System Specs.

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System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
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Hsi -> data -> cycle to WP -> UFC -> ELEV -> FEET -> Input "0" -> ENTER?

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- "It's better to reign in hell than to serve in Heaven"

 

Modules: A-4E-C Skyhawk, A-10C II Tank Killer, AJS37 Viggen, AV-8B Harrier, F-14B Tomcat, F-15C Eagle, F-16C Viper, F/A-18C Hornet, MIG-21 Fishbed, MIG-29, SU-27, SU-33

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And then the waypoint is at elevation 0 and the TGP does not point at the ground where the target is.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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To illustrate what I mean

Waypoint at Elevation 0.jpg

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

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System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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It should always retrieve the correct ground ASL elevation with elevation "0" based on wp coordinates and internal map database / gps data, can't remember right now.

Doesn't it work for you? 

I'm sure it works for A-10 and F-16, i thought it was an Hornet behavior too... can't test it rn


Edited by Pantera93
Added ASL info
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- "It's better to reign in hell than to serve in Heaven"

 

Modules: A-4E-C Skyhawk, A-10C II Tank Killer, AJS37 Viggen, AV-8B Harrier, F-14B Tomcat, F-15C Eagle, F-16C Viper, F/A-18C Hornet, MIG-21 Fishbed, MIG-29, SU-27, SU-33

Maps: Caucasus, Nevada, Persian Gulf, Syria, Supercarrier

Rig: i7 4790 / Nvidia GTX 1070 Strix / 16GB RAM DDR3 1600 MHz / 256 GB SSD / Windows 10

Setup: ThrustMaster TWCS Throttle, Titanwolf "Vulture" Stick, DelanClip PRO, Home-made universal Cockpit panel

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14 minutes ago, Pantera93 said:

It should always retrieve the correct ground ASL elevation with elevation "0" based on wp coordinates and internal map database / gps data, can't remember right now.

Doesn't it work for you? 

I'm sure it works for A-10 and F-16, i thought it was an Hornet behavior too... can't test it rn

 

In A-10 if you enter elevation 0, you get 0 as elevation which means sea level. The way to get correct elevation in A-10 is to re-enter coordinates and that will pull correct elevation from DTED

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It doesn't work in the F/A-18, and I've tried it with the A-10, and the AH-64D.

In the F/A-18 and the A-10, the waypoint is saved with elevation = 0 and aiming the TGP at it shows it aiming at a point under ground, as in the above illustration.

The AH-64D saves the waypoint at level 0, BUT when you set the WP to DIR (direct steering point) you actually see the home-plate marker at ground level, as if the WP were actually at ground level. If you look at the WP in the nav. comp. though, it says elevation 0, big as day.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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10 minutes ago, Vakarian said:

In A-10 if you enter elevation 0, you get 0 as elevation which means sea level. The way to get correct elevation in A-10 is to re-enter coordinates and that will pull correct elevation from DTED

So, overwriting LAT/LON with the same numbers gets nav. com. to lookup and enter the ground level?, or do you need to create a new waypoint?...

That might work in the A-10, but I know it won't work in the F/A-18, bc I already had a thread, where that was the issue.

I was working with a JTAC and the JTAC gave the MGRS for a target, and I neglected to enter the elevation. I had to self-laze the entered waypoint. JTAC couldn't laser it, bc the point was on a plateau and the JTAC was in the valley below and couldn't actually see the ground on which the target was standing.

Laser on, drop GBU-12... miss. Laser on, drop GBU-12... miss. Laser on, drop GBU-12... miss. FUUUUU!!!! Then I realized the TGP was looking at the ground (forest with mortars below the treetops, ofc), and while I was flying laterally to the target, the TGP was slewing across the ground, bc - see the illustration above.

I had entered the waypoint coordinates correctly, but neglected to add the elevation, with crappy results, because the nav. com. doesn't think and realize that elevation 0 in the mountains is underground, and not right.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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11 minutes ago, Captain Orso said:

So, overwriting LAT/LON with the same numbers gets nav. com. to lookup and enter the ground level?, or do you need to create a new waypoint?...

 

In A-10 you just re-enter either LAT or LON (no need for both) or MGRS (whichever is quickest to you) and it will pull-up the correct elevation. No need to enter new waypoint, just scroll to the waypoint in question and re-enter coordinate. But yeah, I guess this is not helping you in F/A-18...

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3 hours ago, Captain Orso said:

What is the simplest method of getting the waypoint onto the ground, where it belongs?

Ask the creator to stop the mission and resave with waypoints correctly set. 

Ask the creator to provide target elevation data and use avionics to set it. 

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1) Set the elevation to a reasonable value (you said something between 1000ft and 3000ft)
2) Use the TGP to look for the target
3) Designate it

If the mission designer didn't provide you with exact coordinates/elevation (probably it was intended), you need to acquire the target visually (TGP or helmet) and designate it manually if you want to use GPS/laser-guided bombs or CCRP.

No other way round, I believe. Sometimes you do not get all info necessary for an easy-peasy run.


Edited by Tusky
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8 hours ago, Gierasimov said:

Ask the creator to stop the mission and resave with waypoints correctly set. 

Ask the creator to provide target elevation data and use avionics to set it. 

 

2 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Elevation, though, should be known whenever coordinates are known. That's what maps are for. There's no excuse for having this messed up.

I... I will have a talk with myself 😪 , as I have been guilty of this too. it's easy to forget that the waypoint you place is always way up in the air.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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I can't speculate on whether the real jet has any way to do this, but in-sim I know of no solution you can effect from the cockpit.

 

The closest I think you'll get is the F10 map, which displays elevation at a cursor position. You'll have to mouse around until you get the right coordinates. Pretty awkward.

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7 hours ago, Tusky said:

1) Set the elevation to a reasonable value (you said something between 1000ft and 3000ft)
2) Use the TGP to look for the target
3) Designate it

If the mission designer didn't provide you with exact coordinates/elevation (probably it was intended), you need to acquire the target visually (TGP or helmet) and designate it manually if you want to use GPS/laser-guided bombs or CCRP.

No other way round, I believe. Sometimes you do not get all info necessary for an easy-peasy run.

 

If I can find the target, that's all I care about. Sometimes I can't.

The only other solution I can think of is to use the LAT/LON to find the location on the F10 map--yes, kids, I've done this before, but don't tell Mommy--and check the ground elevation and enter it into the  waypoint.

Oh well.

Thanks for all the replies!

2 minutes ago, AngelAtTheTomb said:

I can't speculate on whether the real jet has any way to do this, but in-sim I know of no solution you can effect from the cockpit.

 

The closest I think you'll get is the F10 map, which displays elevation at a cursor position. You'll have to mouse around until you get the right coordinates. Pretty awkward.

It's not awkward, but it is time consuming so you need patience.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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If you can't find the target with the TPOD so you can get elevation, you can always create a designation via the A/G radar, which will be at ground elevation. Then, the TPOD will be automatically slaved there and display the correct elevation.

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23 minutes ago, Harker said:

If you can't find the target with the TPOD so you can get elevation, you can always create a designation via the A/G radar, which will be at ground elevation. Then, the TPOD will be automatically slaved there and display the correct elevation.

😃 Wow, that IS an idea 😄

So I look for the target on GR and then mark it by putting the GR uprights on it and pressing the TCD button. Will that get the TGP to look exactly where the GR is looking?

I've never done this before. In fact I've rarely found good use for ground radar. At sea, that's another question, but over hard ground, not so much.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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1 hour ago, Captain Orso said:

😃 Wow, that IS an idea 😄

So I look for the target on GR and then mark it by putting the GR uprights on it and pressing the TCD button. Will that get the TGP to look exactly where the GR is looking?

I've never done this before. In fact I've rarely found good use for ground radar. At sea, that's another question, but over hard ground, not so much.

Yes, the radar presents a range-azimuth scope, while the elevation is determined via AG ranging. Thus, upon TDC Depress, designation will be created on top of the desired point, with correct elevation. All other sensors, including the TPOD, will be slaved to that point now and the TPOD will be looking at the correct elevation.

Although the ground radar is not particularly useful for precision targeting, it can come useful if you're looking for large structures, large aircraft, ships or even stuff out in the open (after a lot of gain and contrast adjustment, you might spot small blips), if you cannot use the TPOD and your eyes to spot the target. It's not easy to use, but it does comes useful in certain scenarios, I've found.

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So..... I'm an old man... kind of. I probably need new glasses. I'm using an Oculus CV1 HMD. And... ground radar doesn't find stationary targets very well... at all... 

Maybe playing with gain on the GR might help, but I couldn't find anything, and I knew where to look.

I couldn't get the GR to see the waypoint, nor if I used the HMD to put a target marker on the ground, get GR to see it. Nope, GR doesn't want to play with others.

Sucks to be me, I guess. But since most cases I recall encountering have been self-inflicted (forgetting to enter elevation provided by JTAC, forgetting to put a waypoint on the ground in the ME) I'll have to learn to live with me.

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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Yes, that's exactly what I wanted to do, but I couldn't find the target at all.

I need to practice with GR in a more controlled environment. 

When you hit the wrong button on take-off

hwl7xqL.gif

System Specs.

Spoiler
System board: MSI X670E ACE Memory: 64GB DDR5-6000 G.Skill Ripjaw System disk: Crucial P5 M.2 2TB
CPU: AMD Ryzen 7 7800X3D PSU: Corsair HX1200 PSU Monitor: ASUS MG279Q, 27"
CPU cooling: Noctua NH-D15S Graphics card: MSI RTX 3090Ti SuprimX VR: Oculus Rift CV1
 
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