correct as is RWR poor performance vs Mig-21Bis

[skywalker22]

Check this out how RWR works on F-16 when recognizing Mig-21. 

FCR recognize it waaay earlier then RWR.

 

Track also added.

f16_RWR.vs_mig21.trk

Edited June 27, 2022 by skywalker22

[okopanja]

Likely because the radar was not on.

[skywalker22]

7 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Likely because the radar was not on.

I tried with different Tasks, but always same result.

[BIGNEWY]

@skywalker22 please when you make a bug report add a track replay as short as possible showing the problem

Ive not seen any issue personally. 

[skywalker22]

1 minute ago, BIGNEWY said:

@skywalker22 please when you make a bug report add a track replay as short as possible showing the problem

Ive not seen any issue personally. 

track added into 1st post, sorry. 

[BIGNEWY]

I am not seeing any issue here, the Mig-21 is not turning its radar on until it is in close range, its loaded with R-60 IR missiles and the advanced waypoint options are set to engage at random ranges.

[skywalker22]

Hmmm, interesting point, when to turn radar on. Didn't think of that until now. So, when you see RWR is seeing something, only then you turn the radar on. Even better, since radar on Mig-21 is very time limited, this way you also limit the amount of time having radar on. Thx

[okopanja]

Range of radar and missiles on 21 is short, there is no tactical advantage of turning it on at maximal range, since it has to be guided GCI and/or Lazur DL(not implemented). Also turning it on too early allows the other party to identify it.

[QuiGon]

23 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Hmmm, interesting point, when to turn radar on. Didn't think of that until now. So, when you see RWR is seeing something, only then you turn the radar on. Even better, since radar on Mig-21 is very time limited, this way you also limit the amount of time having radar on. Thx

You can just leave the radar off entirely, if you can aquire the target visually, especially if you only have IR guided missiles. No point in giving away your presence and position by turning your radar on and showing up on the enemie's RWR.

Edited June 29, 2022 by QuiGon

[Hobel]

So with Mig21 radar on, the RWR contact in the F16 disappears at ~13nm

Edited June 29, 2022 by Hobel

[Northstar98]

@skywalker22Try forcing the AI to use the radar for continuous search and try again (can be found under radar using, in set options, in the advanced waypoint (tasks)).

On 6/28/2022 at 8:53 AM, okopanja said:

since it has to be guided GCI and/or Lazur DL(not implemented).

Which is correct as is AFAIK - we have the Fishbed N, the L has the Lazur DL.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Northstar98

[Hobel]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Northstar98:

Try forcing the AI to use the radar for continuous search and try again (can be found under radar using, in set options, in the advanced waypoint (tasks)).

Okay and how far should the mig21 be displayed in the rwr then?

 

I tested it with a buddy with Radar on, result was ~13nm.

The same also with the AI

and the Mig21 radar detects targets  at ~16nm

so the question is still, are 13nm correct?

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[Northstar98]

5 hours ago, Hobel said:

Okay and how far should the mig21 be displayed in the rwr then?

 

I tested it with a buddy with Radar on, result was ~13nm.

The same also with the AI

and the Mig21 radar detects targets  at ~16nm

so the question is still, are 13nm correct?

I seem to remember a typical range of sqrt(2) × the detection range of the threat radar, but barge full of salt and there are a lot of unaccounted variables here.

Regardless, it doesn't really make sense that a RWR would have a shorter detection range than the radar itself; it should be getting 4× the received power compared to the radar, owing to the radiation only needing to make 1 trip as opposed to 2 for the radar (received power for a radar is inversely proportional to distance to the 4th power but only to the 2nd power (inverse square law) for the RWR. The radar in question also isn't LPI capable at all.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Northstar98

[Hobel]

vor 13 Minuten schrieb Northstar98:

I seem to remember a typical range of sqrt(2) × the detection range of the threat radar, but barge full of salt and there are a lot of unaccounted variables here.

Suffice to say it doesn't really make sense that a RWR would have a shorter detection range than the radar itself (it should be getting 4× the received power compared to the radar, owing to only needing to make 1 trip and the radar in question isn't LPI capable at all).

That is the point thank you

 

can you take another look on it, thanks.

@BIGNEWY

 

Tracks

https://www.file-upload.net/download-14958232/F16sight.trk.html
https://www.file-upload.net/download-14958233/Mig21sight.trk.html

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[skywalker22]

7 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

@skywalker22Try forcing the AI to use the radar for continuous search and try again (can be found under radar using, in set options, in the advanced waypoint (tasks)).

I did that, and the result is really strange, I tried with 5 different aircrafts, and on all of them RWR can detect the Mig21 at 13-14nm. Is this really how it should suppose to be?

If not, this must be an issue on the Mig is self.

[okopanja]

The maximal theoretical range of RP-22 is 30 km. However, this is less in praxis.

That is 16.2nm.

[skywalker22]

11 hours ago, okopanja said:

The maximal theoretical range of RP-22 is 30 km. However, this is less in praxis.

That is 16.2nm.

Ok, but RWR on the other aircrafts could, or should detect it way beyond it range (30km), right? At least 2 times longer distance I suppose. 

Example: If RP-22 is able to detect targets on 30km, the RWR on F-16 (for example, since we are in this subforum), should detect Mig21 on at least 60km. 

[okopanja]

2 hours ago, skywalker22 said:

Ok, but RWR on the other aircrafts could, or should detect it way beyond it range (30km), right? At least 2 times longer distance I suppose. 

Example: If RP-22 is able to detect targets on 30km, the RWR on F-16 (for example, since we are in this subforum), should detect Mig21 on at least 60km. 

You got it right from the theory point of view, it should be detectable at distance which is double the range, however that does not mean RWR would trigger.

RWR antenna is not as powerful as radar antenna and I believe it has to pass some threshold, which is likely based on the type of emitter. Most likely you are more interested into closer emitters. (Unless something like awg-9)

Again ED implementation is rather simplistic and sadly too precise.

As I sad before the 21 pilot would be guided, and does not want to turn on radar at maximal range for following reasons:

1. Give minimal warning in case target is unaware(today hard , in 60s a common thing)

2. Do not identify itself (remain unconfirmed as hostile as long as it is possible)

3. His missiles have really short range, so not much of benefit to stary emitting at 30km, when lock is possible at best 22km

Now in this setup the 21 pilot is a dead man, but back in its prime day it was very effective interceptor, and you may wish to explore how it was used in Vietnam.

 

[skywalker22]

2 hours ago, okopanja said:

You got it right from the theory point of view, it should be detectable at distance which is double the range, however that does not mean RWR would trigger.

RWR antenna is not as powerful as radar antenna and I believe it has to pass some threshold, which is likely based on the type of emitter. Most likely you are more interested into closer emitters. (Unless something like awg-9)

Again ED implementation is rather simplistic and sadly too precise.

As I sad before the 21 pilot would be guided, and does not want to turn on radar at maximal range for following reasons:

1. Give minimal warning in case target is unaware(today hard , in 60s a common thing)

2. Do not identify itself (remain unconfirmed as hostile as long as it is possible)

3. His missiles have really short range, so not much of benefit to stary emitting at 30km, when lock is possible at best 22km

Now in this setup the 21 pilot is a dead man, but back in its prime day it was very effective interceptor, and you may wish to explore how it was used in Vietnam.

 

RWR is not antenna, its a digital radar, we can all call it some kind of a sensor. It detects the radio emissions of radar systems. It only receives signals (frequncy band, for example AN/ALR-56M on F-16 has a range from 0.5-20GHz). So what ever some radar emmits, and comes to this RWR sensor, and if its inside the frequnecy range, it can recognize which radar it is (each aircraft has different radar signature). So if RP-22 is turned on, RWR sensor should receive it on at least 60nm away. What is DCS implementation, I don`t really know.

[okopanja]

1 hour ago, skywalker22 said:

RWR is not antenna, its a digital radar, we can all call it some kind of a sensor.

Lets try to clear this up. RWR is not a radar, for a simple reason there is ni signal being emitted.

As for the antennas, they are just part of rwr. These antennas are way smaller, with smaller gain, than radar antenna so any attempt to extrapolate the range at 2x range is wrong (works in theory, but IRL sensitivity and gain do play a role).

 

[Fromthedeep]

One thing that can be a huge confounder here is that the Mig-21's radar may still use some kind of hacky laser code that's a remnant of the original LOMAC mod. It can cause laser warnings in the Ka-50, so it may not interact with actual RWRs in the intended way.

[okopanja]

30 minutes ago, Fromthedeep said:

One thing that can be a huge confounder here is that the Mig-21's radar may still use some kind of hacky laser code that's a remnant of the original LOMAC mod. It can cause laser warnings in the Ka-50, so it may not interact with actual RWRs in the intended way.

From what I see Mig-21 models and displays terrain clutter.