correct as is AGM-65 "Maverick"

[TEOMOOSE]

I was testing the Missile Boresight Correlator "MBC" using the G variant.  The hand-off sequence works, the missile is commanded to track two separate targets from two separate pylons. Also indicated on the HUD Circle 1 and Circle 2. After the lock-on both can be fired or ripple fired.

Except when i fire the maverick both missile goes to the same target, but im tracking 2 separate ones confirmed by the hud symbology.

I also find it a bug that changing Polarity on the Weapon page dosent change the contrast, white-on-black and black-on-white. You will notice the crosshair changing colors but not the video feed. So i have tried changing gain, brightness, contrast using the mfd rocker buttons to get a lock. 

Is this because we only see, have the automatic contrast mode, and currently dont have the options to do it manually just yet ?

Worth to mention here the missing "uncage weapon" function when using Mavericks. When the Mavericks warmed up and ready to be used, in order to have the video feed up, the pilot presses the uncage button and slew.

Unfortunately, i could not get a lock at max range around 9 nmi, but locks are consistent at ranges 7 nmi.  The good lock algorithm does not consider target slant range as a parameter. Therefore the pilot must insure the launch slant range falls withing the aerodynamic range of the missile. I could Pm some figures.

Also the target acquisition, with a question mark, but as far as i understand it:
Holding TMS up stabilizes the seeker gyro, than pilot slew the seeker to that target, and release TMS. Releasing TMS will command the lock-on, even if the target not exactly centered in the tracking window. Restrictions applies.

 

agm65G_2target_track.trk agm65G_nomaxrangelock.trk

[Dragon1-1]

5 minutes ago, TEOMOOSE said:

Worth to mention here the missing "uncage weapon" function when using Mavericks. When the Mavericks warmed up and ready to be used, in order to have the video feed up, the pilot presses the uncage button and slew.                     

AFAIK, this is only for the D, and the uncage button is used to blow off the protective lens cap. TV-guided Mavs don't have it.

[BIGNEWY]

15 hours ago, TEOMOOSE said:

I was testing the Missile Boresight Correlator "MBC" using the G variant.  The hand-off sequence works, the missile is commanded to track two separate targets from two separate pylons. Also indicated on the HUD Circle 1 and Circle 2. After the lock-on both can be fired or ripple fired.

Except when i fire the maverick both missile goes to the same target, but im tracking 2 separate ones confirmed by the hud symbology.

I also find it a bug that changing Polarity on the Weapon page dosent change the contrast, white-on-black and black-on-white. You will notice the crosshair changing colors but not the video feed. So i have tried changing gain, brightness, contrast using the mfd rocker buttons to get a lock. 

Is this because we only see, have the automatic contrast mode, and currently dont have the options to do it manually just yet ?

Worth to mention here the missing "uncage weapon" function when using Mavericks. When the Mavericks warmed up and ready to be used, in order to have the video feed up, the pilot presses the uncage button and slew.

Unfortunately, i could not get a lock at max range around 9 nmi, but locks are consistent at ranges 7 nmi.  The good lock algorithm does not consider target slant range as a parameter. Therefore the pilot must insure the launch slant range falls withing the aerodynamic range of the missile. I could Pm some figures.

Also the target acquisition, with a question mark, but as far as i understand it:
Holding TMS up stabilizes the seeker gyro, than pilot slew the seeker to that target, and release TMS. Releasing TMS will command the lock-on, even if the target not exactly centered in the tracking window. Restrictions applies.

 

agm65G_2target_track.trk 940.18 kB · 2 downloads agm65G_nomaxrangelock.trk 1.42 MB · 2 downloads

Hi, 

I am not seeing any issue here. 

The polarity only changes the symbology not the video, so manual contrast adjustments, you wont always get max range shots 7-8nm is usually good

[Frederf]

Best way to check for two missiles tracking two targets is to use the missile step button to bounce back and forth between the stations and look at the video from each. In DCS it's currently impossible to fire two missiles tracking except when using EO PRE mode and having exactly two missiles on board. In reality this should be possible in EO VIS and EO BORE as well as having for example 6x missiles on LAU-88s.

 Polarity is what the missile's looking for. You're telling it to find black dots or white dots effectively. It's normal for the video feed to remain.

As far as I can tell the MFD BRT/CON rockers are only for cockpit display purposes. The missile should not be affected in lock performance based on these rocker settings.

In USAF Mavericks the video is automatic when the missile has timed out. The pilot has the ability to manually select video before time out with the uncage button. If there is a physical cover on the missile seeker this is also automatically ejected without pilot input. In the case of a non-timed out missile (automatic ejection hasn't happened yet) the cover can be ejected early with uncage as video is activated early by the same button press. This requires master arm ARM to accomplish. The dome covers are glass so they are optically clear (with some possible distortion) for H/K type missiles but are opaque for D/G type missiles. L type missiles have their red plastic dome covers removed before flight.

7-9nm is good lock performance on a small point object like a tank.

Pretty much. You don't have to hold TMS forward during slew for stabilized behavior although it can be good technique as tracking is attempted on TMS forward release. The seeker is space stabilized whenever slewing input is happening even if TMS is not pressed.

[TEOMOOSE]

OKay! Thanks for all the answers. Im still "missing" a few things here. 

How about IR energy. 

The AGM-65D and AGM-65G missiles uses an IR seeker that converts IR energy into electrical signals. The signals are then converted by a digital computer into a TV video image from which the aircrew is able to identify and lock onto objects within the seeker FOV. The digital computer allows the missile to make logical decisions prior to, during, and after launch, decreasing pilot workload and enhancing missile performance. The dual FOV capability  provide improved target identification and increased launch range.
 

Launch Range Determination (AGM-65D and AGM-65G):

The AGM-65D has the capability to lock onto and track tactical-size targets (tanks, BMP's, radar vans, etc.) at a slant range that exceeds the aerodynamic capability of the missile.

(The AGM-65G is primarily intended for use against larger targets, requiring considerable warhead penetration prior to detonation. However, the AGM-65G retains the small point target capability of the AGM-65D.)

The good lock algorithm does not consider target slant range as a parameter. Therefore the pilot must insure the launch slant range falls withing the aerodynamic range of the missile.

So the seeker dosent care what it is and how far it is! Its only sees the contrast, and so it can lock onto it, as stated above. You the pilot has to make sure you are withing range to shoot.

I did made a few interesting pictures with the contrast turned all the way down. Place moving targets arent showing up in the weapon page as white "bricks" only static objects!


 

[Frederf]

Changing the MFD contrast doesn't change the seeker contrast. Usually the range limit on point targets is they are tool small to be lockable. Not enough pixels. In this way something is lockable in NFOV farther than WFOV.

[TEOMOOSE]

9 hours ago, Frederf said:

Changing the MFD contrast doesn't change the seeker contrast. Usually the range limit on point targets is they are tool small to be lockable. Not enough pixels. In this way something is lockable in NFOV farther than WFOV.

Yeah you keep saying that, but im getting this information from a official manual. So you cant really change my mind on this. What im actually looking for here is to get the right people on this to investigate. They may not have it, or their sme`s wrong again. @BIGNEWY

[Frederf]

The descriptions of those rockers are they "adjust the display intensity/contrast" respectively. If you have information that the lock performance of the missile depends on the BRT/CON rocker settings I'm interested. I have never seen anything that would indicate that is the case. If the missile lock performance in DCS depends on the MFD bright/con settings then I would submit that as a bug.

[TEOMOOSE]

1 hour ago, Frederf said:

BRT/CON rocker settings

Why are you so focused on this! I think that is been answered alright! Im not saying that by changing BRT/CON rocker settings you can get "better" lock, but point out an obvious fact that currently not modeled in Dcs. Just as a reminder, just to stay on topics. AGM-65D has the capability to lock onto and track tactical-size targets (tanks, BMP's, radar vans, etc.) at a slant range that exceeds the aerodynamic capability of the missile.

You may also go research on this, just as i did. I found a document that is pretty good in details, with diagrams, and it cannot be ignored.
 

 

Edited July 4, 2022 by TEOMOOSE

[skywalker22]

22 hours ago, TEOMOOSE said:

OKay! Thanks for all the answers. Im still "missing" a few things here. 

How about IR energy. 

The AGM-65D and AGM-65G missiles uses an IR seeker that converts IR energy into electrical signals. The signals are then converted by a digital computer into a TV video image from which the aircrew is able to identify and lock onto objects within the seeker FOV. The digital computer allows the missile to make logical decisions prior to, during, and after launch, decreasing pilot workload and enhancing missile performance. The dual FOV capability  provide improved target identification and increased launch range.
 

 

 

TV Video? For TV video you need to have some TGD, like Lightening II or something. IR is only a sensor, which looks for heat.

[TEOMOOSE]

6 minutes ago, skywalker22 said:

IR is only a sensor, which looks for heat.

Exactly, but a reminder to read my post carefully. It is not to be confused with the use of TGP. Im only talking about mavericks and its seeker capabilities.

The good lock algorithm does not consider target slant range as a parameter. Therefore the pilot must insure the launch slant range falls withing the aerodynamic range of the missile

Edited July 4, 2022 by TEOMOOSE

[Frederf]

I have heard that commonly the kinematic range of the missile exceeds the seeker track range, especially for point targets. Kinematic is going to depend on speed/range.

[TEOMOOSE]

11 hours ago, Frederf said:

I have heard that commonly the kinematic range of the missile exceeds the seeker track range, especially for point targets. Kinematic is going to depend on speed/range.

Correct, as i stated this previously. Now what we need is the probability to lock-on targets beyond max slant range. So, again: The seeker converts IR energy into electrical signals. The signals are then converted by a digital computer into a TV video image ( what you see on the MFD WPN page) from which the aircrew is able to identify and lock onto objects. Meaning whatever its projected to the video feed is seen and analyzed by the seeker, therefore you should be able to LOCK-ON that object. Otherwise you dont, and you should not see no IR energy reflection  at all.

Edited July 5, 2022 by TEOMOOSE

[Frederf]

The newer AGM-65D2 are digital video inside the missile. I don't agree that it should be probabilistic. Either it's large enough angular size and sufficient contrast (and/or edge definition) or it's not.

I haven't checked lock range v target size in DCS. Is a small tank vs a ship the same?

[TEOMOOSE]

On 7/5/2022 at 11:50 AM, Frederf said:

haven't checked lock range v target size in DCS. Is a small tank vs a ship the same?

I havent checked either. But AGM-65D has the capability to lock onto and track tactical-size targets (tanks, BMP's, radar vans, etc.) at a slant range that exceeds the aerodynamic capability of the missile.

Currently, feels like its hard coded to a simple value. If you are within this range, than you can do that. 

[FusRoPotato]

The tracking algorithm and imaging of the AGM65-D is based on the ΔT of pixels presented by an object relative to its surroundings with its best sensitivity and resolution. It's not based on absolute T so contrast on the sensor itself so it wouldn't make any sense conceptually to play with "sensor contrast". The contrast adjustments your MFD only integrates those ΔT values to absolute T through contrast scaling for your eyes and brain to interpret. It will help you spot targets easier if optimally set but have no effect on the sensors tracking ability.

[TEOMOOSE]

1 hour ago, FusRoPotato said:

The contrast adjustments your MFD

This conversation is beyond if this MFD thing. 

 

 

On 7/4/2022 at 11:49 PM, TEOMOOSE said:

Correct, as i stated this previously. Now what we need is the probability to lock-on targets beyond max slant range. So, again: The seeker converts IR energy into electrical signals. The signals are then converted by a digital computer into a TV video image ( what you see on the MFD WPN page) from which the aircrew is able to identify and lock onto objects. Meaning whatever its projected to the video feed is seen and analyzed by the seeker, therefore you should be able to LOCK-ON that object. Otherwise you dont, and you should not see no IR energy reflection  at all.

 

[Frederf]

5 hours ago, TEOMOOSE said:

But AGM-65D has the capability to lock onto and track tactical-size targets (tanks, BMP's, radar vans, etc.) at a slant range that exceeds the aerodynamic capability of the missile.

I've heard the opposite.

[TEOMOOSE]

4 hours ago, Frederf said:

I've heard the opposite.

i have read the opposite of what you are telling me. I cant send the document because that would violate rules, but im pretty sure if do your research you will find it.

[skywalker22]

49 minutes ago, TEOMOOSE said:

i have read the opposite of what you are telling me. I cant send the document because that would violate rules, but im pretty sure if do your research you will find it.

you can pm him

[Bunny Clark]

On 7/7/2022 at 12:34 AM, TEOMOOSE said:

i have read the opposite of what you are telling me. I cant send the document because that would violate rules, but im pretty sure if do your research you will find it.

I assume you're talking about the F-16-34, page 1-708 contains the text you're frequently quoting from. 

That sentence is intended as a caution that, in some circumstances, the AGM-65D may be able to lock a target at a range greater than the slant range of the missile. It doesn't mean that it will always lock on at that range, or even that it will frequently lock on at that range, just that it technically can. The A and B models were notorious for poor lock-on range, and pilots could safely fire the missile as soon as it locked the target without regard for range, as it would always fall within the max slant range (the A in particular was known for not locking on until within 2 miles of the target). The -34 is cautioning pilots that with the D model, they need to be mindful of missile range, as a valid lock-on does not necessarily mean the missile is within launch parameters. It does not mean that an AGM-65D will reliably lock on to a target beyond the range of the missile. 

[Dragon1-1]

This will also depend on current weather conditions and on surroundings. Will it lock a hot convoy truck in a snowfield amidst Caucasus winter night from outside the kinematic range? Probably. Will it manage the same on a hot asphalt road in Syria? Doubtful. Also, aerodynamic range is itself a function of launch aircraft's speed and altitude, so if you're going in low and slow (say, to give yourself time to set things up) it might not be as long as you'd like. The lock range on the D is definitely not very long in average conditions.