reported 2 Different Aim120C?

[Hobel]

Hello

It turns out that the F15 carries a slightly different Aim120C than the F18/16.

I have shot all the Aim120s in Pitbull on the MI-8 in this scenario.

The F16's Aim120C go from the rail, accelerate and fly straight all the time. They see nothing

The Aim120C of the F15 however  always pull light G.

Even if the F15's Aim120C flies past the target, it weakly tracks the Mi-8 beforehand. and consequently flew very close by

 

Shouldn't all Aim120C behave exactly the same in this scenario, or is it because the F15 is an FC3 module?

F16.acmiF15.acmi

 

 

F16.trk F15.trk

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[Coxy_99]

Theres no difference you just said so yourself they all miss aim120 is aim120.  120 will never see the helo. Now try the same test in STT and watch 120 hit.

[Hobel]

Have you looked at the tacview/track.  How can you not see a difference?

 

  

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Coxy_99:

Theres no difference you just said so yourself they all miss aim120 is aim120

Then read again exactly what I wrote

 a miss aim120c is not a miss 120c if one difinitive tracks something for a short time and the other never sees anything from the beginning.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[=BoB= David]

2 hours ago, Coxy_99 said:

Theres no difference you just said so yourself they all miss aim120 is aim120.  120 will never see the helo. Now try the same test in STT and watch 120 hit.

"120 will never see the helo." But 120 should see helo, iirc rotor have really big RCS.

[razo+r]

This is DCS, not real life.

[Hobel]

Here is another example, a moving Mi-8 the Aim120 of the F16 sees nothing and therefore simply flies straight ahead.

The one of the F15 on the other hand:

 

Both were shot  in the Pitbull

F16.acmi F15.acmi

 

 

  

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Coxy_99:

Now try the same test in STT and watch 120 hit.

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[okopanja]

When it comes to FC3 there is a duality of implementation, and sadly it does not stop only with AMRAAM. I believe there is virtually a copy of each asset, but you can get the glimpse at that here:

https://github.com/Quaggles/dcs-lua-datamine

Sometimes ED makes a modification to one side of the picture and forgets to update the other side. I would personally expect them to transition everything to the new model, but for the time being there is this duality.

[Sacarino111]

Hi.

I've seen the F16.acmi one, and I think I know what the issue is;

Don't get me wrong, please, it is just  my opinion.

For the AIM120 to track and hit a non locked target, it is not "PitBull" what is in game, but "VISUAL": 

PitBull means that you already had a target lock ( STT or TWS, cant tell if that matters), you fired against it and at some point in the fly, the missile is close enough to find/track and hit it autonomously (is that a word?), so the shooter can break lock and the missile should do his thing.

Visual means no lock, the shouter keeps the target in the circle shown in the HUD and keeps it there until hit/miss.

From your TacView file I can't tell if you had a lock or not, so if no lock, you turned away from the target too soon so the missile could not  "ride the beam", hence no track and no hit. Try to fire the missile and keep the bogey inside the HUD circle, it should home on it.

Saludos.

Saca11.

Again, I can't tell if you had a valid lock before launch.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Sacarino111

[Hobel]

vor 12 Minuten schrieb Sacarino111:

From your TacView file I can't tell if you had a lock or not, so if no lock, you turned away from the target too soon so the missile could not  "ride the beam", hence no track and no hit. Try to fire the missile and keep the bogey inside the HUD circle, it should home on it.

Saludos.

Saca11.

Again, I can't tell if you had a valid lock before launch.

I have no lock here But this does not explain why it behaves differently with both aircraft.

In other tests I flew directly into the sea after firing the rocket, the result remains the same as in the first post.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[Sacarino111]

Just now, Hobel said:

I have no lock here But this does not explain why it behaves differently with both aircraft.

that is true...

 

Just now, Hobel said:

In other tests I flew directly into the sea after firing the rocket, the result remains the same as in the first post.

"Into the sea"? Sorry, I don't understand. You mean you try to keep the target within parameters and went into the water? Try to fly the plane so the target stays in the circle. I will setup a mission and see tif I can redo this.

Saludos

Saca111

[Hobel]

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Sacarino111:

"Into the sea"? Sorry, I don't understand. You mean you try to keep the target within parameters and went into the water?

Saludos

By this I meant that after firing the rocket I rushed directly into the sea to prevent some kind of "ghost" track whatever, but that didn't make any difference in the end.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb Sacarino111:

Try to fly the plane so the target stays in the circle. I will setup a mission and see tif I can redo this.

The scenario you describe I have also tested and above you can see a video of it. where I even hold the lock

And in the tacview I've pasted above, I do what you describe with the last Mi-8

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[Sacarino111]

Hi again.

I made the mission. I only did the test with the F16, but I  post the .trk to ilustrate my point. Again, if I missed something from your explanation I beg your pardon.,.

I will now try with the F15 and will post again.

Saludos.

Saca111

F16Visual.trk

[Hobel]

I have seen their track file, but the test differs enormously here.

You are shooting at a target that is flying towards you.
What we are talking about here are stationary or beaming targets.

The "notchgate" of the Aim120 is more or less ~55km/h  but that doesn't seem to apply to the Aim120C from the F15 anymore

And that is an important difference

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[Sacarino111]

6 minutes ago, Hobel said:

I have seen their track file, but the test differs enormously here.

You are shooting at a target that is flying towards you.
What we are talking about here are stationary or beaming targets.

The "notchgate" of the Aim120 is more or less ~55km/h  but that doesn't seem to apply to the Aim120C from the F15 anymore

And that is an important difference

 

Beaming targets? Ok, will try.

But keep in mind I talk about the missile finding a target with no lock, using VISUAL mode, but still radar on. I 'll try with the same seup and no radar, te see if the missile will fin/track something. 

P.S. I did add tabs for the planes so it is easyer to understand.

Saca111

 

 

F15Visual.trk

[Hobel]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Sacarino111:

using VISUAL mode, but still radar on

Id do

Spoiler

 

 

[Sacarino111]

Hi.

Next test. 

F15C, AIM 120C, no radar, visual mode. (first .trk)

F15C, AIM 120C, no radar, visual mode, but crank away so target is not in the circle (2º .trk)

F16, AIM 120C, Visual mode; first missile goes mad, no track nor guidance (apparently). Second missile, tracks, but a different target othr than the one centered in the circle, but goes for another target, maybe with a better geometry for the radar to track/lock

F15VisualNoRadar.trk F15VisualNoRadarOffSet.trk F16VisualAbeam.trk

I concur that the F15 AIM 120 behaves different from the one in the F16. Will do more tests.

[Sacarino111]

Last test of the morning...

Can't extract any conclusion after the last test, so feel free to get yours...

Saludos.

Saca111

F16VisualMultiple.trk

[Sacarino111]

And the very last one, just to blow the minds...

But the missiles behave differently... could be a well known reason, who knows, that I am missing but the fly is quite different.

Saludos.

Saca111

F15VisualMultiple.trk

[Aquorys]

58 minutes ago, Sacarino111 said:

For the AIM120 to track and hit a non locked target, it is not "PitBull" what is in game, but "VISUAL": 

No, "visual" is not a thing with AMRAAMs

Quote

PitBull means that you already had a target lock ( STT or TWS, cant tell if that matters), you fired against it and at some point in the fly, the missile is close enough to find/track and hit it autonomously (is that a word?), so the shooter can break lock and the missile should do his thing.

"Pitbull" is a radio call to inform other pilots that you have a missile in the air that has transitioned from being guided via the datalink to guiding autonomously using its own radar (and possibly a "Husky" call before, but the missile characteristics in DCS do not seem to implement that)

 

Quote

Visual means no lock, the shouter keeps the target in the circle shown in the HUD and keeps it there until hit/miss.

If you fire an AMRAAM without a bugged target or radar lock on the aircraft, then it will immediately go active and look for targets, and the radio call for using it like that would be "maddog", not "visual".

 

Quote

From your TacView file I can't tell if you had a lock or not, so if no lock, you turned away from the target too soon so the missile could not  "ride the beam", hence no track and no hit.

That's not how AMRAAMs work, there is no beam from the aircraft. If you fire the missile without initial guidance from the aircraft, then the only thing that matters is whether or not it can find and track the target. If it does, you can fly whichever direction you want, or you could even fire it with your radar turned off, and it would still hit.

 

Quote

Try to fire the missile and keep the bogey inside the HUD circle, it should home on it.

Hopefully it's a bandit and not a bogey, cause we'd prefer to know what we're shooting at

[Hobel]

vor 5 Minuten schrieb Sacarino111:

And the very last one, just to blow the minds...

But the missiles behave differently... could be a well known reason, who knows, that I am missing but the fly is quite different.

Saludos.

Saca111

F15VisualMultiple.trk 271 kB · 0 Downloads

Your test are not quite clean the targets start to move throw chaff and partly leave the notch.

But nevertheless the Aim120C from the F15 performs more reliable here.

[Sacarino111]

6 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

No, "visual" is not a thing with AMRAAMs

Check my tracks. I don't talk about "real things in real life", but if you select AMRAAM with no target selected (F15C) you get a "VISUAL" cue in the HUD display (DCS). That is what I was talking about, not the talking of it.

 

10 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

"Pitbull" is a radio call to inform other pilots that you have a missile in the air that has transitioned from being guided via the datalink to guiding autonomously using its own radar (and possibly a "Husky" call before, but the missile characteristics in DCS do not seem to implement that)

 

Well, I know it is a radio call about a missile/atack fase. I do believe it happens in DCS, as it is possibel to break lock and fly away and the missile will continue, I', pretty sure I did so many times with success...

 

12 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

If you fire an AMRAAM without a bugged target or radar lock on the aircraft, then it will immediately go active and look for targets, and the radio call for using it like that would be "maddog", not "visual

Again, I wasn't talking about radio calls, but fases of the attack, using the radio calls terminology (my bad) trying to make myself more clear.

 

14 minutes ago, Aquorys said:

That's not how AMRAAMs work, there is no beam from the aircraft. If you fire the missile without initial guidance from the aircraft, then the only thing that matters is whether or not it can find and track the target. If it does, you can fly whichever direction you want, or you could even fire it with your radar turned off, and it would still hit.

That's a language problem, I'm afraid. I meant to say that the "bandit" (not the "bogey") is flying 90º relative to the shooter (notching would be a better world) wich make radar detection more difficult/impossible with the filters applyed.

In any case, thanks for the corrections...

Saludos.

Saca111

[XCNuse]

Hobel, what happens if you do the same test against like-aircraft instead of the Mi8?

Just out of curiosity's sake.

 

(although it is a very seriously and obvious presence of spaghetti code if two aircraft end up with drastically different results like that when using "the same" missile)

[Hobel]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb XCNuse:

Hobel, what happens if you do the same test against like-aircraft instead of the Mi8?

Just out of curiosity's sake.

 

(although it is a very seriously and obvious presence of spaghetti code if two aircraft end up with drastically different results like that when using "the same" missile)

 the F15 Aim120 has 2 "modes" as far as I could observe.

-Below ~55km/h approach speed it still detects targets and steers in easily, even if it is sometimes not enough to hit them

-Above ~55km/h it behaves again like the AIm120C from F16/18

-Aim120 from the F18/16 detect nothing below ~55km/h

and this then of course also affects other flying objects

Edited June 30, 2022 by Hobel

[TaxDollarsAtWork]

OP is making this way harder than it needs to be for himself

 

OP could make two custom load outs with 120Cs

One for the F-16 and one for the F-15

 

Then check in the unit payloads file under DCS saved Games and mission editor if the CLSID for the missiles match.

 

If the do not he can take that CLSID and look up its specifics in the Quaggle data mine to see if there's any differences in seeker FOV or anything like that

[Hobel]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb TaxDollarsAtWork:

OP is making this way harder than it needs to be for himself

 

OP could make two custom load outs with 120Cs

One for the F-16 and one for the F-15

 

Then check in the unit payloads file under DCS saved Games and mission editor if the CLSID for the missiles match.

 

If the do not he can take that CLSID and look up its specifics in the Quaggle data mine to see if there's any differences in seeker FOV or anything like that

thanks for the hint, I checked directly and could not find any difference.

that's why practical tests are so important.

but would be nice if you or someone else could also check again