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AGM-114K Ranges


Belphe

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Hi,

With all the "amateur" websites such as Wikipedia 😉 showing up on the first 100 pages of google search results, this forum and you - the Developers and knowledgeable Community are the only sources of information.

Please, tell me what the maximum range of AGM-114K actually is in all its launch configurations. I know that George will only launch it under 8km and I know that this is the range suggested in the manual but having him to lase the target and then WAS'ing/launching the missile myself I used to hit anything just under 10km. Today, all of the 8 missiles I tried achieving this with missed and not because the target was too far - they actually overflew the enemy and exploded 50 meters behind them. Is it that the laser is too dispersed and unable to properly guide the missile? If so, why is it working for the Hornet when its lasing it's LGBs from 30,000ft? 🙄

Thanks!


Edited by Belphe

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1 hour ago, Belphe said:

Please, tell me what the maximum range of AGM-114K actually is in all its launch configurations.

If you are asking for it's real-life range, that is a sensitive topic that isn't appropriate for discussion.

However, if you asking what the maximum range within DCS is, I've been able to strike targets at 9.9 km, the limit of the AH-64D laser. However, you need to launch it LOAL with a HI trajectory for it to have enough kinematic energy to reach that far. And you need to have a very precise aim point in maximum zoom, to ensure you aren't lasing beyond the target itself, something that George isn't 100% perfect with, which is to be expected since he isn't supposed to be a perfect targeting system, just like a human.

1 hour ago, Belphe said:

If so, why is it working for the Hornet when its lasing it's LGBs from 30,000ft? 

This is a very poor comparison, and also subject to a lot of player frustrations when the AH-64D initially came out. That's not just me speculating on that, I observed it first hand when playing online with friends. When you are dropping an LGB from a fighter, there are two key differences between this and engaging a target with a Hellfire from a helicopter.

First, when dropping from a fighter, you are lasing from a very high angle to the ground, so if the TGP is not directly on the target, the laser will probably still be within a few meters of the target. When you are lasing from a very low altitude, you are firing a laser across the surface at a very shallow angle. If you move the crosshairs ever so slightly up or down, the designation can move several hundred meters. If you or George let the laser drift ever so slightly beyond the top of the tank, you're designating the ground anywhere from a hundred meters to a full kilometer beyond the target (depending on how extreme your lasing angle is at low altitude).

Second, the Hellfire is not a 500 pound bomb packed full of explosives, it's a 100 pound anti-tank missile; where most of the mass isn't explosives but rather the rocket motor, guidance unit, and seeker. If you don't actually hit the target with a GBU-12, you're still probably going to blow it up, depending on how hardened/armored it is or how close you hit. If you don't directly hit a target with any anti-tank missile (of any type), it's not going to have any effect.


Edited by Raptor9
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Also, as some of the pilots explained to me, not all lasers are the same. The Apache laser isn’t of the same type as a jet laser. They can carry I guess a higher wattage laser.

While in DCS we may be able to use LOAL and hit targets around 10km depending on variables, and while there’s information we aren’t privy to regarding the ballistic limits of a hellfire, what the Apache pilots explained to me is it’s actually more difficult to keep an accurate laze on a target beyond like 8km. 

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16 hours ago, Belphe said:

I was in a steady hover. Do you mean it's a bug?

No, I don't mean it's a bug. If you are flying with human CPG and you are not maintaining steady flight, it means laser will be all over the place. While it might look that George is keeping laser steady on target on video feed, that migh not be the case. Anyway, anytime laser is not steady on target, missiles tend to overshoot.

Since you say you were in steady hover, I am inclined to go with Raptor9 explanation.

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On 7/1/2022 at 9:22 PM, Raptor9 said:

I've been able to strike targets at 9.9 km, the limit of the AH-64D laser. However, you need to launch it LOAL with a HI trajectory for it to have enough kinematic energy to reach that far.

If so, could I suggest such option to be implemented from the back seat? Currently, when we set George CP/G to use LOAL - HI he will still not launch further away than 8km. Perhaps he could have his absolute max launch range increased to 10km?

***

Am I aiming too high? Is my aiming too wobbly?

 


Edited by Belphe

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The hellfire takes longer than 45 seconds to reach the target = miss  (are 45 seconds actually realistic?)

 

Try low or direct that might save a few seconds


Edited by Hobel
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59 minutes ago, Hobel said:

are 45 seconds actually realistic?

No idea but there's a RL chart that lists 8km LOAL-LO/HI as 44 seconds TOF at OAT -32°C.

At OAT 21°C, 8km LOAL-LO/HI TOF should be 36 seconds and max range +8km

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A couple of things in the video posted:

1) as pointed out, TOF was more than 45 seconds, so the missile runs out of battery before it impacts

2) You fire with ACQ set to fixed, meaning you get no timing feedback for when to lase. You are lasing for the whole TOF. This might (depending on how it's all working in DCS) affect the trajectory and thus the kinematic range. If you are trying to get maximum range out of the missile you'll need to consider this.

Either way, point 1) essentially means a guaranteed miss unless you are extremely lucky. 

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I mean, raptor can chime in, but I don’t think ACQ source has anything to do with it. It’s just reference info telling you where to point. Maybe TOF as well yeah but I’ve hit stuff as human CPG out to like 9800. The missile lofts a predetermined amount with Hi mode then looks down for the laser. Especially at that range and angle I’d make sure to aim at the ground beneath the target. I dunno how real life works, but the laser energy will spread a lot at that distance presumably. As to dcs gameisms I just find that No matter really the angle or distance I’m more accurate if I laze the ground just below the target.

The manual says you can continuous laze right after firing the missile. I think I’ve read elsewhere , pertaining to using George and firing missile as pilot, you should wait 10 seconds before lazing 

Edit:

Not sure if this is relevant but here I hit target at 8500m using George. Starts at 1:47

 


Edited by S. Low
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vor 18 Stunden schrieb S. Low:

I mean, raptor can chime in, but I don’t think ACQ source has anything to do with it. It’s just reference info telling you where to point. Maybe TOF as well yeah ... [snipped]

 

as an example: if you set ACQ to a Point (like where the target is provided by JTAC or buddy or else) you well get the N range to that point and AFAIK that will give you a TOF when launching LOAL for that range.

see below 😉


Edited by Kharrn
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