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Option for Server Administrators to disable VR and other in-cockpit Zoom functions.


mobettameta

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Hello all,

I run a set of servers focused on A2A PvP.  I've been finding that people have been abusing VR Zoom and other in-cockpit zoom functions to either tell aspect, flap position, wing sweep position, AB on/off, or other details that would not be normally observable at the distances they are observing these signs.

I'd like to have the option to disable the feature for all clients on the server.  If there is a way to force it off through lua or something, that is fine, but I think it should be a server option just as "no external views" and such are options.

Thank you.

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It would be unfair to people flying on monitors to disable their zoom cause you cant even see where the enemy is, let alone flaps position in dogfight. I have 27" at 2k and I cant tell flaps position with zooming,

I assume VR is some thing else, never flew in VR so I cant say.

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1 hour ago, Furiz said:

I assume VR is some thing else, never flew in VR so I cant say.

The only difference is that VR users can't zoom in as much as pancake uses can and thus can't see as much detail, and that the perspective shift makes the entire world perception go wonky.

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4 hours ago, Furiz said:

It would be unfair to people flying on monitors to disable their zoom cause you cant even see where the enemy is, let alone flaps position in dogfight.

I believe that may be what the OP is complaining about: flat-screen users abusing a feature that is intended to help VR players take a look at their controls. VR players have no 'normal' zoom function like non-VR players have, and (due to the fact that even top shelf goggles still have too low a resolution to clearly read small gauges or MFD symbology from 3 feet or more away) without the VR zoom would have to move their head closer to the dashboard, losing sight of their objective. It helps very little with identifying outside features (it merely moves the world's projection plane closer to the camera, a very disconcerting, not to say cheap effect), and the parallax shift alone severely limits this feature's usability (a correct zoom would reduce the FoV like a zoom lens, increasing object resolution. VR Zoom doesn't work that way, it just shoves the camera forward by a few feet). I have no idea if flat-screeners can use VR Zoom on top of their normal zoom ability and thus are able to abuse this to get an artificial 'eagle eye'. If they do, that would indeed be a possible cheat.

Believing that VR users have an unfair advantage over flat-screeners with VR Zoom is doubtful as their normal resolution sucks to begin with (they do have an enormous advantage in spatial tracking and orientation, but definitely not in far sight nor outside resolution). VR giveth when it come to experience and taketh in other places like visual clarity. I play almost exclusively VR (once you played VR there is no way back), yet I'm still being outperformed by flatters. That's because they are better pilots than I am. VR doesn't make you better, it just makes you feel better when flying 🙂 

In any way, I don't think it wise to try and micro-manage a server's feature set for a certain set of users. If you believe someone is cheating, tell them and come to a gentleperson's agreement, or ban them from your server. Life's too short to play with jerks; don't waste your precious time to try and come up with measures that they will circumvent anyhow, yet place burdens on everyone else. Ban them, forget them; be too busy to have fun.

Anyway, that's my server policy. I'm renting that server to have fun with fun people, not to argue with immature F--s. 

-ch


Edited by cfrag
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unfortunately, speaking from experience, that MP games from the beginning have had "cheaters". at a minimum they find a flaw and misappropriate. i have found that being too easy on those suspected is no better than kicking and banning. at worst make it clear to everyone that "please do not do this.." as a policy. hopefully only clean folks partake. public servers are great sans the idiots. but idiots are everywhere and there is no good filter to avoid them.

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Zoom

4 hours ago, cfrag said:

feature that is intended to help VR players take a look at their controls.

Zoom view, in DCS and every other flight sim, is a universal feature. All flight sim games have this for the same reason, the need to adjust your FOV on the fly in order to simulate both real world acuity and peripheral vision. On a desktop sized screen, zoomed in is actually a more lifelike size but of course requires an awkwardly narrow FOV and vice versa. Both VR and monitor players need it to make up for the lack of resolution on their displays.


Edited by SharpeXB
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13 hours ago, Furiz said:

It would be unfair to people flying on monitors to disable their zoom cause you cant even see where the enemy is, let alone flaps position in dogfight. I have 27" at 2k and I cant tell flaps position with zooming,

I assume VR is some thing else, never flew in VR so I cant say.

I fly vr all the time I really only use zoom to read the instruments. So getting rid or disabling the zoom will be fine if I could read the dash more clearly this should be part of a graphic overhaul 


Edited by upyr1
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On 7/2/2022 at 12:02 AM, mobettameta said:

Hello all,

I run a set of servers focused on A2A PvP.  I've been finding that people have been abusing VR Zoom and other in-cockpit zoom functions to either tell aspect, flap position, wing sweep position, AB on/off, or other details that would not be normally observable at the distances they are observing these signs.

I'd like to have the option to disable the feature for all clients on the server.  If there is a way to force it off through lua or something, that is fine, but I think it should be a server option just as "no external views" and such are options.

Thank you.

As SharpeXB stated, zoomed view is actually much closer to real world visual acuity than unzoomed.

 


Edited by =475FG= Dawger
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On 7/2/2022 at 10:26 PM, upyr1 said:

So getting rid or disabling the zoom will be fine if I could read the dash more clearly this should be part of a graphic overhaul 

Gfx engine is fine - it spits out whatever resolution you ask from it. It's your hardware that needs overhaul.

@mobettametaThis problem is unsolvable unless everyone has the same hardware and settings. The game has no means of knowing how far from the monitor the user is sitting and how big is that monitor, so the game cannot and shoudn't arbitrarily set real fov, so you cannot say what zoom level is beyond "cheating" treshold for the user. So turning off zoom control would be wrong for monitor users but could be acceptable for VR, which already has the right fov.

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On 7/2/2022 at 8:02 AM, mobettameta said:

people have been abusing VR Zoom and other in-cockpit zoom functions to either tell aspect, flap position, wing sweep position, AB on/off, or other details that would not be normally observable at the distances they are observing these signs.

Have you tried VR?  The resolution (pixel density) of an 8k VR head set is about 1/4 of a 4k monitor.  The zoom function in VR does not come close to what you get in pancake, I would say about 2x zoom.  Even with this zoom, it is not that much.  The day we get human eye resolution, zoom will be cheating.  Until then, it is just a way to compensate the low resolution we are dealing with.

And BTW, if you are flying in a Tomcat, the information you mention is easy to get from the nose camera at almost 10 nm if you are flying towards the bandit... No need for any zoom.


Edited by WipeUout
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On 7/4/2022 at 4:44 AM, WipeUout said:

The zoom function in VR does not come close to what you get in pancake, I would say about 2x zoom

They aren’t comparable because on a normal sized monitor, max zoom equals life-sized more or less. VR in DCS is already life-sized. So 2x VR zoom equals 2x life-sized. FOV doesn’t need to be regulated because it’s self-limiting, you’re just trading one advantage/disadvantage for the other. Many games have FOV adjustments and none I’m aware of have that as a server setting. 

I can’t imagine what zoom looks like in VR, it must feel terribly unnatural and potentially sickness inducing. So VR players likely already have a reason not to overuse it. 


Edited by SharpeXB

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5 hours ago, draconus said:

Gfx engine is fine - it spits out whatever resolution you ask from it. It's your hardware that needs overhaul.

My set up wasn't exactly cheap, so no the problem is with DCS's not being very efficient with resources especially in VR. This is why Eagle is working on multicore support and vulcan. 

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5 hours ago, WipeUout said:

The day we get human eye resolution, zoom will be cheating.

We can save that debate for 20 years in the future 😆

2 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

My set up wasn't exactly cheap, so no the problem is with DCS's not being very efficient with resources especially in VR. This is why Eagle is working on multicore support and vulcan. 

Resolution is a limit of your GPU, not the CPU. So multi core or Vulkan won’t make any difference in this regard. 

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5 hours ago, draconus said:

Gfx engine is fine - it spits out whatever resolution you ask from it. It's your hardware that needs overhaul.

 

You might want to go to this thread with your bit of information. It's about how DCS need better graphics optimisation 

 

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13 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

You might want to go to this thread with your bit of information. It's about how DCS need better graphics optimisation 

VRAM is your graphics card, not the CPU. Multi-core is an aspect of CPU processing. Vulkan supposedly offloads some CPU tasks to the GPU afaik but that has nothing to do with handling higher resolutions. 


Edited by SharpeXB
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8 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Zooming inside cockpit fine.

Zooming outside of cockpit amounts to abuse. Real pilots can not do this.

Server admin should be the final authority on this.

Yea but real pilots have really really good picture (human eye is around 576 megapixels), we have monitors with 4k (4000 pixels), notice the difference? Zoom is there to compensate for the lack of pixels, and size of screen.

If it weren't for that zoom you wouldn't be able to see like real pilot does, cause of monitor size or the resolution deficit in VR.

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I would suggest also to disable track ir apps. In real life ther is no possible to turn your head 180 deg. Cheaters! ;)

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Able to identify the flap position?

wow, I struggle to tell the difference between a Spit and a 109 until I’m nearly on top of it in VR


Edited by Mr_sukebe
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57 minutes ago, okopanja said:

Zooming inside cockpit fine.

Zooming outside of cockpit amounts to abuse. Real pilots can not do this.

Server admin should be the final authority on this.

I don’t know how you’d think one would work without the other. Or that they’re not directly related. 

42 minutes ago, Furiz said:

Yea but real pilots have really really good picture (human eye is around 576 megapixels), we have monitors with 4k (4000 pixels), notice the difference? Zoom is there to compensate for the lack of pixels, and size of screen.

If it weren't for that zoom you wouldn't be able to see like real pilot does, cause of monitor size or the resolution deficit in VR.

It’s funny that you have to explain this. Like it’s not fully obvious already. 


Edited by SharpeXB
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25 minutes ago, Mr_sukebe said:

Able to identify the flap position?

wow, I struggle to tell the difference between a Spit and a 109 until I’m nearly on top of it in VR

 

This! 😆

 

Sorry, but this thread is ridiculous 😂

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2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

VRAM is your graphics card, not the CPU. Multi-core is an aspect of CPU processing. Vulkan supposedly offloads some CPU tasks to the GPU afaik but that has nothing to do with handling higher resolutions. 

 

My mainpoint in that post is that Eagle knows DCS needs an overhaul. I know VRAM is not connected however bottlenecks pile up on eachother. 


Edited by upyr1
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33 minutes ago, SharpeXB said:

I don’t know how you’d think one would work without the other. Or that they’re not directly related. 

It’s funny that you have to explain this. Like it’s not fully obvious already. 

 

One of the differnces between Vulkan and Direct X is how they do VR. In direct X you need two rendering piplelines one for each eye while with Vulkan you only need one. So the question I have will reducing the pipleline mean a reduction in VRAm being used or just reduced the workload on the GPU?

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1 hour ago, okopanja said:

Zooming inside cockpit fine.

Zooming outside of cockpit amounts to abuse. Real pilots can not do this.

Server admin should be the final authority on this.

Not true.

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12 minutes ago, upyr1 said:

One of the differnces between Vulkan and Direct X is how they do VR. In direct X you need two rendering piplelines one for each eye while with Vulkan you only need one. So the question I have will reducing the pipleline mean a reduction in VRAm being used or just reduced the workload on the GPU?

My comment there was about the zoom view feature itself and not these APIs. Really Vulkan or multi-core have nothing to do with this topic. 


Edited by SharpeXB
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