Mirage F1 Force Feedback joysticks

[firefox121]

Don't know if the mirage F1 was fly by wire, but are going the developers to contemplate the use of ffb joysticks and its response ? (for example firing cannon , missiles or stall loses?)

Edited July 2, 2022 by firefox121

[Rudel_chw]

No fly by wire, the Mirage F-1 uses electro-hydraulic flight controls.  Regarding the FFB joysticks, if I were a DCS developer I wouldn't spend man hours implementing support for a joystick type that has less than 1% of market share .. let's see if Aerges thinks different.

[firefox121]

hace 2 horas, Rudel_chw dijo:

No fly by wire, the Mirage F-1 uses electro-hydraulic flight controls.  Regarding the FFB joysticks, if I were a DCS developer I wouldn't spend man hours implementing support for a joystick type that has less than 1% of market share .. let's see if Aerges thinks different.

thanks, don't know if is easy or not, hope aerges think different, of course with or without ffb I'll buy it as soon asthey launch the module

[RealDCSpilot]

Times have changed:

 

[WinterH]

9 hours ago, Rudel_chw said:

Regarding the FFB joysticks, if I were a DCS developer I wouldn't spend man hours implementing support for a joystick type that has less than 1% of market share

Thankfully you're not

[Biggus]

1 hour ago, RealDCSpilot said:

Times have changed:

 

Sigh.  RIP to my bank account.  That looks incredible.

[Bremspropeller]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:41 PM, firefox121 said:

Don't know if the mirage F1 was fly by wire

It is in pitch and roll yaw.

Edit: Roll is only electrically controlled in autopilot.

Edited July 14, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[Rudel_chw]

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

It is in pitch and roll.

Fly by wire is a flight control system where the pilot’s control inputs are fed into a computer, which adjusts them and then the computer commands the flight surfaces actuators … the Mirage F1 has no such computer, hence it is not fly-by-wire.

[Bremspropeller]

41 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

Fly by wire is a flight control system where the pilot’s control inputs are fed into a computer

That is incorrect.

A fly by wire system is a system that transmits control-inputs via electrical signals. The existance of a computer has absolutely zip signifigance.

[Rudel_chw]

4 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

That is incorrect.

A fly by wire system is a system that transmits control-inputs via electrical signals. The existance of a computer has absolutely zip signifigance.

"Fly-by-wire (FBW) systems are semi-automatic, computer-regulated aircraft flight control systems that replace mechanical flight controls with an electronic interface."

https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/definition/what-are-fly-by-wire-systems
 

[Bremspropeller]

37 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

"Fly-by-wire (FBW) systems are semi-automatic, computer-regulated aircraft flight control systems that replace mechanical flight controls with an electronic interface."

https://www.baesystems.com/en-us/definition/what-are-fly-by-wire-systems
 

Call them, tell them their website is wrong. Don't want to take my word for it? Take the USAF Flight Daynamics Lab's instead:

https://web.archive.org/web/20200115234428/https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/679158.pdf

Figure 4 looks very close to the F1's actual control architecture in pitch and roll.Plus there's a mechanical back-up, for when the doodoo hits the fan.

[Rudel_chw]

21 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Don't want to take my word for it? Take the USAF Flight Daynamics Lab's instead

 

OK, sorry, you are right and I'm totally wrong .. the matter is setled.

[Ramsay]

20 hours ago, firefox121 said:

... are the developers [going] to contemplate the use of ffb joysticks and its response ? (for example firing cannon , missiles or stall loses?)

I don't know Aerges philosophy on FFB but ED's is that they (only?) model RL stick feedback i.e. no chassis FFB vibration unless it would be felt through control linkage IRL or if the stick/pedals had a stick shaker fitted.

Current DCS FFB effects inc.
• A-10C = control stick is loose until engine is running and hydraulics powered
• F-86F = control stick pitch trim effects center position\spring force (real has an adjustable spring cage), no aerodynamic forces pass back to the stick due to hyd actuators
• UH-1H = Force Trim OFF gives loose stick, Force Trim ON allows "stick feel" spring center to be adjusted
• L-39C = Stick starts loose, as speed increases aerodynamic forces make the stick stiffer, stall onset can be felt by buffet effecting control surfaces and feeding through linkages back to stick. Flap 1 --> 2 operates elevator trim compensator tab and little to no change in pitch (non-FFB users see a pitch up).

Personally I wouldn't expect FFB stick effects for firing cannon or missiles.

Edited July 3, 2022 by Ramsay

[Dirty Rotten Flieger]

It's laughable to quote a 1968 definition of FBW in 2022 and think that all modern definitions are wrong.  The presence of the computer is why we are even talking about it . If the signals are transmitted by wire instead of physical means then it will fly roughly the same way anyway. If the pilot pulls too hard and drops a wing that will happen either way. But a computer between the pilot and the surfaces will intervene to stop the stall. 

If there is no computer the F1, it will not fly like any other DCS FBW plane. 

I love FFB. The Mig21 going supersonic... I chop throttle and pull into a turn. The FFB changes as the plane goes trans sonic. I don't have to look at the dial to know I just went through 1.2 mach. So much nuance is lost giving up FFB. It amazes me so many fly without it. I guess I only really fly the older non FBW planes. FFB is much richer in the older planes.

Of course I will be disappointed if FFB is not working in Mirage F1 on release. 

 

[71st_AH Rob]

12 hours ago, Dirty Rotten Flieger said:

It amazes me so many fly without it.

If you'll loan me € 1,299.00 I'll happily order a Brunner base and hop on the FFB bandwagon with my Warthog grip.  But if my wife ever found out I spent that much on a joystick base I shudder to think about what the real price would be...

[Bremspropeller]

12 hours ago, Dirty Rotten Flieger said:

It's laughable to quote a 1968 definition of FBW in 2022 and think that all modern definitions are wrong.

There is no "modern definition". The definition never changed.

The fact that a five year old today has more computing power in their pocket than the entire US space programme of 1968 just tends to favor solutions that will include a Flight Control Computer anyway.

12 hours ago, Dirty Rotten Flieger said:

If the signals are transmitted by wire instead of physical means then it will fly roughly the same way anyway. If the pilot pulls too hard and drops a wing that will happen either way

Exactly.

12 hours ago, Dirty Rotten Flieger said:

But a computer between the pilot and the surfaces will intervene to stop the stall.

That's not how it works. You'll have an AoA limiter, which will give you a set amount of AoA* and based on AoA will allow for either a roll-rate or roll-deflection and might introduce a beta-cancelling amount of rudder. The latter could either be hard-coded or computed dynamically as well.

Fighters don't classically stall like a Cessna. They'll usually run into some sort of stability-limitation and hence will wing-rock and depart (roll- or yaw-departure) at high AoA. "The computer" won't stop the stall; it'll just prevent you from reaching a problematic AoA. That's a fine but important difference.

You don't need a computer for that, though.

___

*this amount will either be hard-coded (e.g. by some sort of configuration-switch) or it may actually be computed in real-time in

 

[Vibora]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:41 PM, firefox121 said:

Don't know if the mirage F1 was fly by wire, but are going the developers to contemplate the use of ffb joysticks and its response ? (for example firing cannon , missiles or stall loses?)

 

The DCS: Mirage F1 module will include FFB on EA release. It simulates the artificial feel system and flight controls and fying aids in general. No unrealistic stuff like vibration when shooting or stalling etc, as it has to be.

[Whirley]

On 7/3/2022 at 3:39 PM, Rudel_chw said:

 

OK, sorry, you are right and I'm totally wrong .. the matter is setled.

 

2 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

There is no "modern definition". The definition never changed.

The fact that a five year old today has more computing power in their pocket than the entire US space programme of 1968 just tends to favor solutions that will include a Flight Control Computer anyway.

Exactly.

That's not how it works. You'll have an AoA limiter, which will give you a set amount of AoA* and based on AoA will allow for either a roll-rate or roll-deflection and might introduce a beta-cancelling amount of rudder. The latter could either be hard-coded or computed dynamically as well.

Fighters don't classically stall like a Cessna. They'll usually run into some sort of stability-limitation and hence will wing-rock and depart (roll- or yaw-departure) at high AoA. "The computer" won't stop the stall; it'll just prevent you from reaching a problematic AoA. That's a fine but important difference.

You don't need a computer for that, though.

___

*this amount will either be hard-coded (e.g. by some sort of configuration-switch) or it may actually be computed in real-time in

 

Regarding the FBW topic:

A lot in this discussion depends on what can be called a computer. According to wikipedia what the F1 has might be called an analog computer.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analog_computer

Thanks, the air force document you linked is interesting. It also defines what FBW is in the beginning. It states that the input can not only be forwarded electrically. To be FBW a feedback loop is required and aircraft motion is to be controlled, not only control surface motion.

According to the document the F1 seems to have a pseudo-FBW. Which is a FBW with normally disengaged mechanical backup.

So most interestingly it seems as if the F1 is indeed a FBW aircraft (pseudo-FBW).

[firefox121]

hace 6 horas, Vibora dijo:

The DCS: Mirage F1 module will include FFB on EA release. It simulates the artificial feel system and flight controls and fying aids in general. No unrealistic stuff like vibration when shooting or stalling etc, as it has to be.

Awesome!!!, waiting for relese, if you put now a pre-purchase,my bank account will drop for sure, counting days till the release....hope before august.

Keep the good working

[ViFF]

On 7/4/2022 at 6:27 PM, Vibora said:

The DCS: Mirage F1 module will include FFB on EA release. It simulates the artificial feel system and flight controls and fying aids in general. No unrealistic stuff like vibration when shooting or stalling etc, as it has to be.

Thank you very much for this!!!  I have the Microsoft Sidewinder Force Feedback 2 (red) and it is still working for over 20 years like new out of the box.

I very much recommend to anyone finding this stick on ebay it is a gem!  I regularly look for them and if I see one in good condition and good price I immediately snatch it!

Flying DCS Warbirds and Helicopters is on a whole other level with the MS SW FF2 stick.  Also fantastic with all the DCS jets that are not full FBW.

Cheers!

 

Edited July 12, 2022 by ViFF

[RealDCSpilot]

On 7/4/2022 at 4:17 PM, 71st_AH Rob said:

If you'll loan me € 1,299.00 I'll happily order a Brunner base and hop on the FFB bandwagon with my Warthog grip.  But if my wife ever found out I spent that much on a joystick base I shudder to think about what the real price would be...

Join the VPforce discord and check the much better and cheaper Rhino FFB base or DIY kit:  https://discord.gg/XEXZmQHk3T

[MAXsenna]

On 7/4/2022 at 5:27 PM, Vibora said:

The DCS: Mirage F1 module will include FFB on EA release. It simulates the artificial feel system and flight controls and fying aids in general. No unrealistic stuff like vibration when shooting or stalling etc, as it has to be.

Thank you! It's really cool when the stick is without any force, until you start the engine and it gets stiffer and stiffer as the engine spools up.

Question though, doesn't the stick move when you trim like in the C-101?

Thanks for a great module and an awesome release!
Cheers!

[Vibora]

10 hours ago, MAXsenna said:

Thank you! It's really cool when the stick is without any force, until you start the engine and it gets stiffer and stiffer as the engine spools up.

Question though, doesn't the stick move when you trim like in the C-101?

Thanks for a great module and an awesome release!
Cheers!

Movement with trim: pending. It will be fixed.

[MAXsenna]

29 minutes ago, Vibora said:

Movement with trim: pending. It will be fixed.

Thank you!

[Phantom_Mark]

On 7/2/2022 at 10:15 PM, Rudel_chw said:

No fly by wire, the Mirage F-1 uses electro-hydraulic flight controls.  Regarding the FFB joysticks, if I were a DCS developer I wouldn't spend man hours implementing support for a joystick type that has less than 1% of market share .. let's see if Aerges thinks different.

I hope all developers ignore this way of thinking, that way when someone in the hardware industry wakes up and smells the roses all the aircraft will immediately be compatible with our archaic, and new gen hardware

I wish those who have not flown with one could experience them so they understand why we keep asking for these features to be applied to the flight models.

One day someone will come with some serious hardware, and one day someone will clean up the market if they play their cards right.

 

Edited August 8, 2022 by Phantom_Mark