Air to Air Refueling

[MikeMic]

Relatively new guy, going through all the missions and trying to figure out how to complete air to air refueling.  I have an Orion F18 stick and have left it default settings.  

Any tips or tricks?  I've seen a couple of youtube videos but I'm struggling to keep the movements small. 

[henshao]

Boom or hose?

[MikeMic]

Hose.  F-18.  I seem to be doing okay with the throttle.  Working it back and forth a bit for a slow approach, but I'm struggling with the pitch/roll of the aircraft.

[Dustband]

I would increase the curves of pitch and roll when ready to approach the tanker, it makes fine inputs much easier. Also do not focus on the basket, but focus on a point further away like the engine and try to align with that one; That way you're not "chasing" the basket.

[SharpeXB]

Adding a bit of response curve to your stick is the normal thing to do. Unless you have it on an extension you need that desensitizing to make up for how jumpy a short desktop sized stick is. The rest is just lots and lots of practice. 

[draconus]

13 hours ago, MikeMic said:

Relatively new guy...

See, you challenge yourself with one of the hardest achievements in DCS. Get practice, precise stick movements and formation flying and get back to AAR when you're ready. There're no tricks to get over skill. Have you already prefected your Case I?

I advise against curves btw.

Edited July 3, 2022 by draconus

[rob10]

I'm also in the don't do curves camp.  Biggest tip I have for newbies learning A-A is DO NOT look at the basket.  If you focus on it you'll make a lot of movements trying to hit it.  Focus on the tanker and use your peripheral vision to track the probe and basket and you'll likely make a lot less movements which damps things down.  It's as much about making a movement "before" you need to (anticipating it) rather than correcting after it's happened.  And just a pile of practice.  It seems impossible until you get it a few times and then it does become easier.  Once you get connected make sure you go toward the tanker enough to give you some slack in the hose (a bit of droop) so that you have a little more time to correct throttle if you get a hair slow before you drop off.

[Draken35]

1 hour ago, rob10 said:

Biggest tip I have for newbies learning A-A is DO NOT look at the basket. 

This... And small corrections, patience and take your time... 

[MikeMic]

Thanks everyone for the tips.  I've not yet perfected Case 1 landings but i'd say i'm good for 50% of those, so perhaps some more time will help improve my skills.  I've hit the basket a few times now, but it is definitely tough and once I do engage the basket I struggle keeping it there.

Appreciate all the help.  

[draconus]

59 minutes ago, MikeMic said:

I've hit the basket a few times now, but it is definitely tough and once I do engage the basket I struggle keeping it there.

You don't need any more help from us then - you've already done it and you just need more practice

[Tomcat388th]

For me I find the S3 a little more touchy to stay in the basket.   The KC130 and KC135 a little more forgiving.  With those two, once I'm in the basket I push in and crowd the pod some.  Gives me a little more wiggle room fore and aft. With the S3 if I push in to far I disconnect real easy

J

[Dscross]

On 7/2/2022 at 9:59 PM, MikeMic said:

Relatively new guy, going through all the missions and trying to figure out how to complete air to air refueling.  I have an Orion F18 stick and have left it default settings.  

Any tips or tricks?  I've seen a couple of youtube videos but I'm struggling to keep the movements small. 

Mike, AAR isn't easy. It is a mighty big pain... the first time. But there are some tricks. Now, I don't use curves on anything, rudder, stick or throttle. What I do is practice. Putting in a curve won't help you AAR if you can't AAR, if that makes sense. A curve will only help you if you've figured out the sight picture, approach speed, visual reference points, etc. When I was learning, some people recommended curves, nope. Don't' do it. You have your stick, and you've trained with it. If you change it, it'll only get harder. And 99% of the time, stick control isn't the problem, visual reference and knowing how it's done IS the problem. 

Next, are you setting up the tanker missions, or is someone else? Not all tankers are equal. if some mission maker doesn't know how to properly set up a tanker, it makes it much, much harder. So, set up your own tanker to learn on, then progress to others. Make it fly over water, with no wind, at 22,000 ASL. Have it fly in a straight line, like all the way across the black sea or something? If you don't know the sight picture, the last thing you want is a tanker bouncing and turning. In mission editor give the tanker a speed of about 350 knots (IN Mission EDITOR!) this will give you an indicated air speed of about 250 knots, which is about perfect for a Hornet. Set a TACAN channel in the mission for the tanker, and tune to it. This will give you distance from the tanker as you approach. 

Approach slightly below the tanker (about 50 feet is usually fine) this will enable you to avoid most of the wake turbulence. Don't fly directly behind the tail or the engines. Call "Ready Pre-Contact" at 0.1 NM (according to your TACAN) Any further out and you'll get "Return Pre-Contact" from the tanker. Wait until the basket comes out, then extend your probe and make those minor corrections the extended probe will require. 

Don't look at the basket. Usually putting your heading tape on where the hose pod extends from works best. Keep your speed =/- 3 knots of the tanker's speed. Once in the basket, push it forward about 10 feet and then hold speed about 1 kt over tanker speed. (Enabling you to maneuver a bit without dropping the basket.) Now, ignore your fuel and just fly the formation. The tanker will tell you when you've filled up. Keep your eye's glued to that basket pod and make very slight corrections. 

Once you fill up a few times you'll become more comfortable and you'll be able to get on takers which are turning, etc. For me the easiest jet to refuel is the Community A4 Skyhawk, then the Mirage 2000, followed closely by the Hornet. The tomcat is a bitch, no matter how you refuel it. The F16 and the F15 are fairly straight forward as you just follow the lights and ignore the boom. Same with the A10. Just fly the airplane and put it where it needs to be. Baskets are of course harder. I've only tanked (or tired) a few times in the AV8B and it wasn't fun any of those times. 

Again, you have a good quality stick. You'll be fine without curves when you figure out those visual reference points. and without knowing the visual reference points, curves won't help you. If you feel you need to add curves later, okay, but don't put any in yet. As you haven't learned the basics of where you need to put and hold the jet. 

Okay, now I run a training squadron. If you need help, feel free to drop by the discord. I'll have you on a tanker in an hour or so. (Unless you totally fly ham fisted...lol) Here's a link to the discord, and we've got a number of very good hornet instructors. (and other aircraft as well, but since you mentioned hornet.) 

https://discord.gg/JuBydbsfDn

Good luck, and I'll see you in the skies. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Dscross said:

Putting in a curve won't help you AAR if you can't AAR, if that makes sense. A curve will only help you if you've figured out the sight picture, approach speed, visual reference points, etc. When I was learning, some people recommended curves, nope. Don't' do it. You have your stick, and you've trained with it. If you change it, it'll only get harder. And 99% of the time, stick control isn't the problem, visual reference and knowing how it's done IS the problem. 

Sure a curve isn’t some magic trick that will suddenly grant you the ability to AAR. Practice and lots of practice and following that even more practice is the key. Followed by more practice…

But at the same time, there’s nothing realistic about controlling a sim airplane with a small spring-centered non-FFB stick. It’s all artificial. So if your plane feels like it’s jumpy beyond human control it’s normal to add a bit of a curve to dampen that out. No point in making this task harder. 

[Dscross]

4 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Sure a curve isn’t some magic trick that will suddenly grant you the ability to AAR. Practice and lots of practice and following that even more practice is the key. Followed by more practice…

But at the same time, there’s nothing realistic about controlling a sim airplane with a small spring-centered non-FFB stick. It’s all artificial. So if your plane feels like it’s jumpy beyond human control it’s normal to add a bit of a curve to dampen that out. No point in making this task harder. 

The Orion isn't small, or spring centered, it is a large dual cam center stick with adjustable tension and polished metal cams that are some of the top in the business. I know, I own one, though I use my Virpil Alpha mostly now, I own 5 or 6 sticks, and I've flown with all of them. The Orion isn't even in the same league at the ThrustMaster (any model), it's loads better. It's in the top five of flight sim sticks. Putting a curve on it makes no sense at all, because of the reasons I already stated, and since the user can easily adjust the cams and spring tension. Again, it's not ThrustMaster plastic junk. There are no plastic-on-plastic bearing surfaces, and cams, springs and sensors are of very high quality on every example I've looked inside of. I don't use mine much anymore because I don't just fly the Hornet or Harrier, and for some other aircraft the Virpil Alpha has better useability (in my opinion). Winwing, VKB (selected models) and Virpil are orders of maginature better than anything with a plastic-on-plastic bearing surface. Adding a curve to an Orion is usually counterproductive. 

[SharpeXB]

1 hour ago, Dscross said:

The Orion isn't small, or spring centered, it is a large dual cam center stick with adjustable tension and polished metal cams that are some of the top in the business. I know, I own one, though I use my Virpil Alpha mostly now, I own 5 or 6 sticks, and I've flown with all of them. The Orion isn't even in the same league at the ThrustMaster (any model), it's loads better. It's in the top five of flight sim sticks. Putting a curve on it makes no sense at all, because of the reasons I already stated, and since the user can easily adjust the cams and spring tension. Again, it's not ThrustMaster plastic junk. There are no plastic-on-plastic bearing surfaces, and cams, springs and sensors are of very high quality on every example I've looked inside of. I don't use mine much anymore because I don't just fly the Hornet or Harrier, and for some other aircraft the Virpil Alpha has better useability (in my opinion). Winwing, VKB (selected models) and Virpil are orders of maginature better than anything with a plastic-on-plastic bearing surface. Adding a curve to an Orion is usually counterproductive. 

You might not find a curve necessary for your stick but the blanket advice to others might not be appropriate. The need for a curve doesn’t have to do with the quality of the stick, simply it’s length unless you have it on an extension. A short stick is like trying to drive your car with a 6” dia. steering wheel. That and the lack of any force feedback (in most sticks) is what makes sim aircraft so much more sensitive than reality. A real stick also doesn’t have the same travel forward and back, most of the travel is in the pull direction. Since the spring centers the stick 50/50 that longer pull is compressed in travel distance again making the pitch axis much more sensitive than reality. There’s no realism in a PC flight stick despite the quality of the construction or mechanism. Practice makes perfect and there are people who can AAR with console gamepad controllers. But that’s not making it any easier.

[draconus]

3 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

A short stick is like trying to drive your car with a 6” dia. steering wheel.

It is what it is. It's a matter of individual commitment and money. Now, the curves can make small corrections easier but then what? You're back to cruise, then BFM and your curves are now doing you a disservice by making your big stick deflections overly sensitive. Or do you change the curves every time you change flight mode? It's a compromise between sensitivity in one range vs the other and it's hard to make a change later - it goes against your muscle memory.

[Dragon1-1]

5 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

 That and the lack of any force feedback (in most sticks) is what makes sim aircraft so much more sensitive than reality. A real stick also doesn’t have the same travel forward and back, most of the travel is in the pull direction. Since the spring centers the stick 50/50 that longer pull is compressed in travel distance again making the pitch axis much more sensitive than reality. 

All this is not necessarily the case. Most modern fighter sticks don't actually have any "force feedback", they have a fixed. Also, with the Hornet in particular, the forward travel limit is simulated - the stick in the sim will hit the hard stop before your physical stick does, and it will stop moving accordingly. All in all, if you have a decent stick with an extension, the biggest difference is the magnitude of the forces required, which are much higher in the real aircraft.

One more thing that is specific to Orion stick is a progressive force curve. The stick is very precise around the center, so much that it feels like a force-sensing stick at times. It's mostly a matter of muscle memory, but it's certainly not making AAR harder than IRL. If you're flying in VR, all you're really missing is motion cues. IRL, it takes a whole lot of practice, too.

[Hammer1-1]

Ive flown with a VKB MCE Ultimate, Virpil T-50CM3, TM Warthog, Saitek X56 and some old school Saitek X45 joysticks with aerial refueling. Never used a curve to do it. If you've never used a curve, dont. What you SHOULD learn is how to finesse your joystick with micro adjustments; the trick is to make your joystick as comfortable as possible and that means positioning it in a natural position. Sitting it on the side of your chair isnt going to help things UNLESS its an FSSB joystick and you're flying an F-16. It should be between your thighs at waist height where you can put both hands on it and fly with your fingertips like its meant to be flown. Finesse is flying in formation with fingertips, not dampening movements with curves. It just takes time and patience.

[SharpeXB]

9 hours ago, draconus said:

It is what it is. It's a matter of individual commitment and money. Now, the curves can make small corrections easier but then what? You're back to cruise, then BFM and your curves are now doing you a disservice by making your big stick deflections overly sensitive. Or do you change the curves every time you change flight mode? It's a compromise between sensitivity in one range vs the other and it's hard to make a change later - it goes against your muscle memory.

Theoretically a curve would seem to make the outer ranges of travel more sensitive but in practice it doesn’t seem to make any difference. Bottom line though is curve or no curve there isn’t much realism in flight sim controls. Look at sim racing wheels, how they’re full scale and able to transmit forces etc. we don’t have anything like that with flight. It would be nice but also impossible since you’d have to bolt your stick into the concrete floor of the room if you were going to pull on it like the real thing. So it’s pretty much a lost cause. 

[Dscross]

On 7/19/2022 at 11:36 PM, SharpeXB said:

You might not find a curve necessary for your stick but the blanket advice to others might not be appropriate. The need for a curve doesn’t have to do with the quality of the stick, simply it’s length unless you have it on an extension. A short stick is like trying to drive your car with a 6” dia. steering wheel. That and the lack of any force feedback (in most sticks) is what makes sim aircraft so much more sensitive than reality. A real stick also doesn’t have the same travel forward and back, most of the travel is in the pull direction. Since the spring centers the stick 50/50 that longer pull is compressed in travel distance again making the pitch axis much more sensitive than reality. There’s no realism in a PC flight stick despite the quality of the construction or mechanism. Practice makes perfect and there are people who can AAR with console gamepad controllers. But that’s not making it any easier.

The Op came here for advice. I have that stick, and I offered the best advice, in my experience, with that stick. So, in fact, blanket advice was asked for.  You seemed to have missed that part in your eagerness to disagree with me.  Do you use it? Have you used it? In my experience, metal internals stick I've found do not require curves, and unless you know the basics, curves won't help, as I stated. The OP is free to follow or not follow any advice they see fit, but to argue a point you don't seem to have experience in. (your sticks are listed there, and I don't see an Orion...) Seems silly. But feel free to have the last word as you see fit. 

[tuxsmouf]

The advice which helped me the most is you have to be relaxed. Move your toes, don't grab too hard your hotas or whatever. you have to be as relaxed as possible. 

For the training, I like playing on "through the inferno" pve servers, I find easy to train on refuel, give up on the refuel if it takes too long but you are still being able to go on targets in A/G. 

Don't give up !

 

[Ronin14]

Simply watch the video, easy to follow. 

 

[Tomcat388th]

On 7/2/2022 at 8:59 PM, MikeMic said:

Relatively new guy, going through all the missions and trying to figure out how to complete air to air refueling.  I have an Orion F18 stick and have left it default settings.  

Any tips or tricks?  I've seen a couple of youtube videos but I'm struggling to keep the movements small. 

Mike I have the same stick and for me learning to A2A refuel I had to add a pretty high curve at first. What felt like a small stick movement in my mind was a big movement on the 18. As I got better feel for everything  I backed them down.

J