GIB, WISO, WSO, or RIO?

[Czechnology]

As asked in the title, was the guy in back typically referred to as GIB, WISO, WSO, or RIO?

In Fighter Pilot by Robin Olds I always heard it as GIB, and in TOPGUN by Dan (if I remember right, someone please double check me) it was RIO.

[Lieuie]

RIO is a Naval term for the rear seat And it refers to the Radar Intercept Officer meaning the guy that controls the radar. The Airforce didn't use that term. It referred to them as WSO or Weapon Systems Officers. GIB refers to the Guy In Back but I don't think that was the official terminology used by the Air Force although I could be wrong on that one. Since we are getting the E which is an Air Force version I assume we are going to refer them as WSOs.

[Dragon1-1]

RIOs are Navy GIBs, WSOs are air force GIBs. Though admittedly, I haven't heard "GIB" used by any USN aviator, they just call them RIOs. GIB is not an official term, nor is it the only unofficial one, but it was in use all over the place during Phantom's heyday. 

[Heinlein]

i prefer BOB (baby On Board)

[sparrow88]

6 hours ago, Dragon1-1 said:

RIOs are Navy GIBs, WSOs are air force GIBs.

Aren't they called WSOs in the Rhino these days though?

[Fromthedeep]

They were called WSOs.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ryzOdLcsWX4

 

[G.J.S]

Talking luggage, “the wife”, the last flare, the rear crew member has been called many things 

 

It really does depend on to whom the rear seat belongs. Naval “RIO”, U.S. Air Force “WSO”. RAF Nav. GIB is generic.

[Dragon1-1]

Don't forget "voice-commanded autopilot".  At least on the USAF Phantoms that had controls in the back that could be handed off to the GIB on the boring parts of the route.

Edited July 7, 2022 by Dragon1-1

[QuiGon]

USAF (and Luftwaffe): WSO
USN: RIO
RN/RAF: Navigator

Edited July 8, 2022 by QuiGon

[Nodak]

Not mentioned in this thread, but many readers probably won't get that WSO was spoken as "Wizzo" by the troops, with RIO its easy to figure that out automatically.  Everything gets broken down to a nickname, easiest and fastest way to communicate without misunderstanding at the ground level.

[Bremspropeller]

On 7/8/2022 at 2:01 PM, QuiGon said:

USAF (and Luftwaffe): WSO

In the Luftwaffe, it was initially the "KBO" (Kampfbeobachter*). They went over to using the WSO-term eventually, as probably everybody else associated to USAF training. Didn't the Wild Weasels call their backseaters "Bears" for some time? Might have been a Thud-thing, though.

*literally "battle observer" - the term "observer" stems from the ww2 Luftwaffe where in bombers (pre Ju 88) the observer - not the pilot - was actually the guy in charge on board.

Check out this old recruitment film:

Spoiler

 

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[QuiGon]

1 hour ago, Bremspropeller said:

In the Luftwaffe, it was initially the "KBO" (Kampfbeobachter*).

Interesting. I didn't know that term was still around at that time.

Edited July 9, 2022 by QuiGon

[Gene K]

As a long aside - in the USAF the back seaters initially were pilots straight out of Pilot Training ... it was thought that the Phantom was too much for a new pilot to handle. As a result, many pilots in the back were not getting much experience flying the plane, but became really good Weapons Systems Operators while awaiting their turn to upgrade to the front. The normal GIB  route was to get a tour in SEA in the pit, come back to  the US to upgrade to Aircraft Commander, and then return to SEA in the front.

"Unfortunately" for many GIB pilots awaiting their chance to upgrade, the USAF concluded that new pilots could in fact handle the airplane, and started assigning pilots to the front seat straight out of pilot training. At the same time, back seaters started coming to the Phantom from Navigator Training. All that resulted in some "mentally challenging " situations ... as when a new Lieutenant AC came into a unit and was crewed with an anguished Captain pilot who had hundreds of hours in the back seat. To further distress pilot GIBs, the USAF started sending pilots from other aircraft to the Phantom front seat based on hours of flying experience. That way a pilot who graduated Pilot Training in a class ranking below others (who chose fighters) got to the front seat ahead of pilot GIBs by "virtue" of having flown long hours in cargo or bomber aircraft. The sad part of that travesty was that some very talented pilot GIBs languished in frustration to the point that they left the Air Force. 

Gene K

[Bulldog_1]

6 hours ago, Gene K said:

As a long aside - in the USAF the back seaters initially were pilots straight out of Pilot Training ... it was thought that the Phantom was too much for a new pilot to handle. As a result, many pilots in the back were not getting much experience flying the plane, but became really good Weapons Systems Operators while awaiting their turn to upgrade to the front. The normal GIB  route was to get a tour in SEA in the pit, come back to  the US to upgrade to Aircraft Commander, and then return to SEA in the front.

"Unfortunately" for many GIB pilots awaiting their chance to upgrade, the USAF concluded that new pilots could in fact handle the airplane, and started assigning pilots to the front seat straight out of pilot training. At the same time, back seaters started coming to the Phantom from Navigator Training. All that resulted in some "mentally challenging " situations ... as when a new Lieutenant AC came into a unit and was crewed with an anguished Captain pilot who had hundreds of hours in the back seat. To further distress pilot GIBs, the USAF started sending pilots from other aircraft to the Phantom front seat based on hours of flying experience. That way a pilot who graduated Pilot Training in a class ranking below others (who chose fighters) got to the front seat ahead of pilot GIBs by "virtue" of having flown long hours in cargo or bomber aircraft. The sad part of that travesty was that some very talented pilot GIBs languished in frustration to the point that they left the Air Force. 

Gene K

True story.

[sparrow88]

On 7/7/2022 at 10:20 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Don't forget "voice-commanded autopilot".  At least on the USAF Phantoms that had controls in the back that could be handed off to the GIB on the boring parts of the route.

 

were they allowed to fly them from the backseat? I thought this was only in case of emergency.

[G.J.S]

4 hours ago, sparrow88 said:

were they allowed to fly them from the backseat? I thought this was only in case of emergency.

With that being the reason - wouldn’t it be a good idea to hand off to the back seater to gain some stick time, so if he has to take control in an emergency, he already has a good amount of time from the rear.

[mkellytx]

9 hours ago, G.J.S said:

With that being the reason - wouldn’t it be a good idea to hand off to the back seater to gain some stick time, so if he has to take control in an emergency, he already has a good amount of time from the rear.

It's been known to happen.  Once upon a time, when I was much younger I was a non rated aircrew.  Not that I violated any regs or local OI's, but most airframes I was the backup to the pilot I got plenty of stick time so they knew if something bad happened they were good.  The party ended when an FTE scraped the fins on a Viper, after that only rated crew could fly below 200 ft or anything higher risk than low.  When we took one of those planes to the sandbox, I did get stick time to include some during an emergency.  The switches and what not were on the pilot's side of the cockpit so I stayed heads up while he trouble shot until we were in the pattern and then he put it on the ground, just another day at work dead sticking a plane in the sandbox.

[sparrow88]

14 hours ago, G.J.S said:

With that being the reason - wouldn’t it be a good idea to hand off to the back seater to gain some stick time, so if he has to take control in an emergency, he already has a good amount of time from the rear.

I understand that but I wonder in general how was it regulated. DId the backseaters practice landings and other pilot stuff regularly just in case of an emergency?

Edited July 12, 2022 by sparrow88

[G.J.S]

3 hours ago, sparrow88 said:

I understand that but I wonder in general how was it regulated. DId the backseaters practice landings and other pilot stuff regularly just in case of an emergency?

 

It wouldn’t be frowned upon - landings could be done by an I.P. in the rear, instruments with very limited viz cues in an F-4. Savvy pilots in a dual control Phantom (not many in the RAF) would make sure that rear seat crew were relatively current in “get us home” ability.

On normal ops it could be just handling, how to return to airfield, basic flight safety. I’d rather have someone in the rear who - should I take a bird to the face, can get us away from terra firma and take stock of the situation. 

[IronMike]

I've spoken to an F-15 WSO recently about it, and it seems to be still common practice to give WSOs as much stick time as possible, and pilots seem to rather often and very kindly like to give controls to the WSO. And it makes much sense, too. Having controls in the back, you ofc want the guy in the back to be rather proficient in flying the aircraft.

From what I was told they even shoot approaches, and only at the very end the pilot will take over and touch down, due to better visibility, etc.

[_BringTheReign_]

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

From what I was told they even shoot approaches, and only at the very end the pilot will take over and touch down, due to better visibility, etc.

That's awesome! Can't wait to do that from the back seat of the F-4 haha

[Lieuie]

38 minutes ago, _BringTheReign_ said:

That's awesome! Can't wait to do that from the back seat of the F-4 haha

Yeah. Good thing I've practiced with the Spitfire.

[Heinlein]

hace 2 horas, _BringTheReign_ dijo:

That's awesome! Can't wait to do that from the back seat of the F-4 haha

 

hehe well good luck getting any front visibility 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Heinlein

[upyr1]

On 7/6/2022 at 3:33 PM, Czechnology said:

As asked in the title, was the guy in back typically referred to as GIB, WISO, WSO, or RIO?

In Fighter Pilot by Robin Olds I always heard it as GIB, and in TOPGUN by Dan (if I remember right, someone please double check me) it was RIO.

GIB if you want to be generic it's simply slang as there are multiple real titles For the F-4

WSO if Air Force

RIO if Navy/Marine Corps

EWO if G

Navigator if British 

 

[QuiGon]

On 7/11/2022 at 3:51 PM, sparrow88 said:

were they allowed to fly them from the backseat? I thought this was only in case of emergency.

A former F-4G EWO, F-15E WSO and EA-6B ECMO talks about flying as a backseater (contains traces of urine ) :

(1:21:11 - 1:28:10)

So in short, as he says in the end:
"We end up with some degrees of flying skills. I have the ability to just take the airplane and put it where I want to put it safely and within G-limits".

Edited July 12, 2022 by QuiGon