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Question about turn rate of M2000


Viper143
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Hello guys

In a dogfight server i had a fight against M2000 with F-16, and  it was pretty weird for me. I'm not familiar with m2000 that's why i'm asking here

As i checked from tacview, the mirage's speed was between 180-220kts  TRT was around 18-20 degrees all the time. is this possible? it's not about trading speed for turn. it was continuously like this. I was trying to have the same turn rate at 400-440 kts... with 7-9 G's....

So.. I'm pretty sure that this plane can't do this in real life but in dcs i don't know.. maybe?

 

 

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It would be interesting to have the tacview, there is not enough information here. Especially the variation of Em (aka Ps).
If aircrafts are descending and/or descelerating, this changes a lot.

The M2000 is known to overperform at very low speeds, this will be adressed in an FM refresh.

Now, the viper is doing a very bad job here. The mirage is on the deck and has no energy, if the viper goes vertical and dives the mirage is toast. He will never recover energy fast enough to avoid it.

Side note

I see a lot of debate about very low speed turn rate. At that altitude and low speed turn rate isn't depending much on drag anymore.

It's mostly limited by turn authority which becomes lower. This is why a brick with a big engine and vectored thrust can achieve any low speed turn rate. In that specific mirage case the aerodynamic instability does all the turn work (and not the elevons). Very high turn rates can be achieved at constant speed, if you allow the aircraft to loose altitude. But that's not sustained turn rate (Ps<0)

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Since the last update, M2000 has become an E.T. plane! on the mobetta server I fought against an M2000, we found ourselves in a situation where we were completely vertical at low speed and it could gain altitude! 🤪
I have the impression that apart from the roll rate, everything else is surreal concerning the FM. It's just my opinion, when we compare to all the videos of air display / air show that we can see on the net

Aviate-navigate-communicate

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6 hours ago, irq11 said:

Since the last update, M2000 has become an E.T. plane! on the mobetta server I fought against an M2000, we found ourselves in a situation where we were completely vertical at low speed and it could gain altitude! 🤪
 

Not sure what you expected. Every aircraft that is pointed pure vertical and still has forward speed (low speed or high) will still gain altitude.

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12 hours ago, irq11 said:

Since the last update, M2000 has become an E.T. plane! on the mobetta server I fought against an M2000, we found ourselves in a situation where we were completely vertical at low speed and it could gain altitude! 🤪
I have the impression that apart from the roll rate, everything else is surreal concerning the FM. It's just my opinion, when we compare to all the videos of air display / air show that we can see on the net

If you go full vertical, you will gain altitude... as with every aircraft in DCS or IRL.

Now if you say you can go full vertical and gain speed, in a non-modded M-2000C version on DCS, you will need to bring some proof (a replayable single player .trk file) because otherwise that's likely defamation.

We are not responsible for poor BFM skills and defeats in dogfight 🤪


Edited by Kercheiz
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17 hours ago, Kercheiz said:

Now, the viper is doing a very bad job here. The mirage is on the deck and has no energy, if the viper goes vertical and dives the mirage is toast. He will never recover energy fast enough to avoid it.

Side note

I see a lot of debate about very low speed turn rate. At that altitude and low speed turn rate isn't depending much on drag anymore.

It's mostly limited by turn authority which becomes lower. This is why a brick with a big engine and vectored thrust can achieve any low speed turn rate. In that specific mirage case the aerodynamic instability does all the turn work (and not the elevons). Very high turn rates can be achieved at constant speed, if you allow the aircraft to loose altitude. But that's not sustained turn rate (Ps<0)

In this example Altitude was stable, and it was my first time with "New FM of M2000" normally on deck it was pretty easy to kill the mirage in 2 circle fight, that's why i did give him some time to turn 2 circles.. when i noticed this difference and converted the fight to vertical fight, Mirage was able to climb better than before, and again IRL I don't think mirage can do this.. especially if starting speed is as low as in this case. so IMO mirage guys definitely overpowered the FM


P.S Ofcourse it doesn't matter what i "think" so it would be nice if developers or some fans can provide some evidence of m2k's performance

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1 hour ago, Viper143 said:

In this example Altitude was stable, and it was my first time with "New FM of M2000" normally on deck it was pretty easy to kill the mirage in 2 circle fight, that's why i did give him some time to turn 2 circles.. when i noticed this difference and converted the fight to vertical fight, Mirage was able to climb better than before, and again IRL I don't think mirage can do this.. especially if starting speed is as low as in this case. so IMO mirage guys definitely overpowered the FM


P.S Ofcourse it doesn't matter what i "think" so it would be nice if developers or some fans can provide some evidence of m2k's performance

As already said multiple times the Mirage is over-performing in sustained turn rate, this is most noticeable at low speed. We already have an internal version that resolves these issues and bring the STR to more realistic values.

We are very confident in the engine performance and consumption. This means that the climb rate and acceleration rate are realistic.

As you said, what you think does not matter, what matter is data :).

We are confident that our internal build is the most accurate representation of the Mirage 2000C performances possible. Once it's released, if anyone has data that could highlight some issues with our implementation, we will be very happy to review it :).

The engine thrust and consumption chart are available in the Mirage Manual, some time after the FM/CDVE update is release we will also add EM charts to the manual.


Edited by myHelljumper
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Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

Helljumper's Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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7 hours ago, Snappy said:

Not sure what you expected. Every aircraft that is pointed pure vertical and still has forward speed (low speed or high) will still gain altitude.

Indeed, I expressed myself badly, my mistake. we were both (m2000 and f-18) in full vertical, at around 80knt, and we got back to full AB, and while I was staying almost in place the m2000 accelerated hard at 90° pitch, incredible.

 

28 minutes ago, myHelljumper said:

As you said, what you think does not matter, what matter is data :).

I agree with you 🙂
thanks for your reply

Aviate-navigate-communicate

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3 hours ago, irq11 said:

Indeed, I expressed myself badly, my mistake. we were both (m2000 and f-18) in full vertical, at around 80knt, and we got back to full AB, and while I was staying almost in place the m2000 accelerated hard at 90° pitch, incredible.

I just tried an empty aircraft (300kg fuel, clean) with unlimited fuel, and the temperature setting to the minimum allowed in Caucasus of -12.4°C, 21 december, midnight

I managed to increase CAS by 3kts (from 86 to 89) then it decreased quickly to 60kts and I stopped the test.

Any other trial with standard temperature (15°C) and at least 1T fuel and you immediately loose all your speed.

TacView is attached.

Tacview-20220713-164447-DCS.zip.acmi

Conclusion

That's currently not possible without cheating by modifying files.

Reminder

Cheating, for instance by modyfing aircraft mass, is feasible. You should only connect to servers with Integrity Check enabled. Even then, it may take some time (from a few seconds to one hour) for the server to detect it.

That's why when it comes to claims about wrong performances, only a single player TRK file, that we can replay on our side, can be trusted.

 

2 hours ago, PLUTON said:

It seems to me that I had heard that the French Air Force used the Mirage 2000 and DCS!!
what do they think of the turn rate of the M 2000 DE DCS?
Good or not good?🤔

It's classified.


Edited by Kercheiz
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my apologies, I found the sequence in tacview, the M2000 was at 84.5° pitch, with a VZ of 7433.5 ft/mn and a TAS of 90.7 kts, the F-18 was at 49.3° pitch, with a VZ of 3875.5 ft/min and a TAS of 109.6 kts. it was just a perception error of myself (with VR it accentuates I think), like what the feeling is not a truth :). sorry again

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Aviate-navigate-communicate

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I've found this video, checked some time and degree changes. at low speeds (around 200-250kts) max turn rate is around 20 degrees. (ITR, Not sustained with time airspeed bleeds off as expected even with dive, and turn rate gets lower and lower) But in dcs looks like it's pretty easy to keep STR around 20 degrees while CAS is around 180-220kts.
If you have any chart or VTR tape I'd like to check

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10 hours ago, Viper143 said:

I've found this video, checked some time and degree changes. at low speeds (around 200-250kts) max turn rate is around 20 degrees. (ITR, Not sustained with time airspeed bleeds off as expected even with dive, and turn rate gets lower and lower) But in dcs looks like it's pretty easy to keep STR around 20 degrees while CAS is around 180-220kts.
If you have any chart or VTR tape I'd like to check

So you wasted your time searching for a video and analyze it just to proof a fact that the dev team themselfs already told you? 

 

18 hours ago, myHelljumper said:

As already said multiple times the Mirage is over-performing in sustained turn rate, this is most noticeable at low speed. We already have an internal version that resolves these issues and bring the STR to more realistic values.

 

Modules: KA-50, A-10C, FC3, UH-1H, MI-8MTV2, CA, MIG-21bis, FW-190D9, Bf-109K4, F-86F, MIG-15bis, M-2000C, SA342 Gazelle, AJS-37 Viggen, F/A-18C, F-14, C-101, FW-190A8, F-16C, F-5E, JF-17, SC, Mi-24P Hind, AH-64D Apache, Mirage F1

System: Win 11 Pro 64bit, Ryzen 3800X, 32gb RAM DDR4-3200, PowerColor Radeon RX 6900XT Red Devil ,1 x Samsung SSD 970 EVO Plus 2TB NVMe, 2 x Samsung SSD 2TB + 1TB SATA, MFG Crosswind Rudder Pedals - VIRPIL T-50CM and VIRPIL MongoosT-50 Throttle - HP Reverg G2, using only the latest Open Beta, DCS settings

 

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As said above, we know the low speed behavior issue very well. We also know this video by heart, have AdA feedback, testers that reproduce the airshow displays, analyze frame by frame, etc... Basically if you find something or know something there are 99.9% chances we know it.

Why does it take time to correct then? Well because modifying a FM is really complex, every slight change you make affects not only the flight domain zone you want to correct but the whole (cruising speeds, approach speeds, turn rates, accelerations, transsonic times, FBW stability and oscillations, AP stability and oscillations, etc etc...) so yes, it takes time.

We are releasing next week an update that will fixes things, without being 100% sure of having tested everything despite 15 testers each spent many hours finding issues and retesting after every change. So the update will be released to make the community happy, even if some new issues may be found afterwards. We are already planning another following FM update with more tuning.

Thanks in advance for your understanding.


Edited by Kercheiz
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12.07.2022 в 17:40, Viper143 сказал:

So.. I'm pretty sure that this plane can't do this in real life but in dcs i don't know.. maybe?

 You can check the table for all DCS modules turn rate in this thread. Current parameters for version 2.7.15.26783 

 

 


Edited by IR Sky
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  • 4 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...
13.07.2022 в 21:17, myHelljumper сказал:

As already said multiple times the Mirage is over-performing in sustained turn rate, this is most noticeable at low speed. We already have an internal version that resolves these issues and bring the STR to more realistic values.

We are very confident in the engine performance and consumption. This means that the climb rate and acceleration rate are realistic.

As you said, what you think does not matter, what matter is data :).

We are confident that our internal build is the most accurate representation of the Mirage 2000C performances possible. Once it's released, if anyone has data that could highlight some issues with our implementation, we will be very happy to review it :).

The engine thrust and consumption chart are available in the Mirage Manual, some time after the FM/CDVE update is release we will also add EM charts to the manual.

 

After the patch, the turn of the M2000 became even better and went even further from realism. Or is that how it should be?

После патча вираж у М2000 стал еще лучше и еще дальше ушел от реалистичности. Или так и должно быть?

image.png

image.png


Edited by Vyacheslav
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7 hours ago, Vyacheslav said:

After the patch, the turn of the M2000 became even better and went even further from realism. Or is that how it should be?

После патча вираж у М2000 стал еще лучше и еще дальше ушел от реалистичности. Или так и должно быть?

image.png

image.png

 

Do you have any sources to compare the current DCS Mirage turn rate to ?

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

Helljumper's Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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If any versions of the M-2000C releases have to be compared, it's pre engine upgrade (<=2.7.12) and post fm-rework (>=2.7.18).
The state of intermediate versions has been communicated upon already : reworking the engine without updating the FM resulted in an overall too high performance, which was adjusted in the next version with a quick and dirty fix that wasn't validated. So, versions between 2.7.13 and 2.7.17 shouldn't be used as reference in any way.

You should present better performance charts, that go beyond corner speed, are more precise on conditions (air temperature, max afterburner time, ...)
Setting fuel quantities that give everyone the same afterburner time is a much better comparison. By using 100% for everyone you give a strong penalty to aircraft with large fuel capacity.

Any time you give a judgment on "realism", please provide a comparison source, otherwise this has little informative value.

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27.09.2022 в 10:48, myHelljumper сказал:

Do you have any sources to compare the current DCS Mirage turn rate to ?

Here compare the current version DCS Mirage with known turn rate data. Tested with unlimited fuel and turned off overG. 
https://dcs.silver.ru/Diagram/Mirage2000C
In attach the example of this measuring for speed 250kias
m2000-250kias.png

Скрытый текст

m2000-250kias (2).png

 

m2000-250kias.trk Tacview-m2000-250kias.acmi

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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1 hour ago, totmacher said:

Here compare the current version DCS Mirage with known turn rate data. Tested with unlimited fuel and turned off overG. 
https://dcs.silver.ru/Diagram/Mirage2000C
In attach the example of this measuring for speed 250kias
m2000-250kias.png

  Reveal hidden contents

m2000-250kias (2).png

 

m2000-250kias.trk 153.06 kB · 0 downloads Tacview-m2000-250kias.acmi 53.94 kB · 0 downloads

Hi,

The document used as a reference on the dcs.silver.ru website is taken from an Northrop document used to sell the F-20 to Malaysia. It's an estimation of the aircraft performance made by an entity that wants to sell its product, it should not be used as reference.

There is no solid publicly available turn rate data on the Mirage 2000, our model has been tuned using aerodynamic research and SME feedback. We validated it by testing known data points and procedures like break landing patterns and unpowered glide landings.

While the DCS M-2000C FM is surely not perfect and might need some adjustments, we are confident that our simulation of the Mirage 2000C is the most accurate possible.

I plan on adding about 27 EM chart to the manual late when I have more time so there is no need to perform time-consuming tests like the above for the users.

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Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

Helljumper's Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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38 минут назад, myHelljumper сказал:

we are confident that our simulation of the Mirage 2000C is the most accurate possible

In the reality of DCS World, the Mirage 2000C has a better turn rate than the F-16C! With the same amount of fuel (1500 kg). How "delta wing" could win?

https://dcs.silver.ru/143-1500,148-1500,IAS_kts,turnrate

Turn Rate - F-16C_50,M-2000C.png

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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7 minutes ago, totmacher said:

In the reality of DCS World, the Mirage 2000C has a better turn rate than the F-16C! With the same amount of fuel (1500 kg). How "delta wing" could win?

https://dcs.silver.ru/143-1500,148-1500,IAS_kts,turnrate

Turn Rate - F-16C_50,M-2000C.png

We compared the DCS Mirage performance with the F-16C performance document available on the internet and the Mirage STR was always bellow the F-16C, I don't know how accurate the DCS F-16C FM is regarding STR but we can't adjust the Mirage FM based on other modules.

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Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

Helljumper's Youtube

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCK3rTjezLUxPbWHvJJ3W2fA

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1 час назад, myHelljumper сказал:

We compared the DCS Mirage performance with the F-16C performance document available on the internet and the Mirage STR was always bellow the F-16C

Here compare M-2000C with "F-16C performance documet available on the internet". Altitude 5000ft, 820kg fuel. M-2000C better up to 2 deg/sec...
https://dcs.silver.ru/95,150,turnrate
nullimage.png

 


Edited by totmacher
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"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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