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Question about turn rate of M2000


Viper143

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11 hours ago, totmacher said:

Here compare M-2000C with "F-16C performance documet available on the internet". Altitude 5000ft, 820kg fuel. M-2000C better up to 2 deg/sec...
https://dcs.silver.ru/95,150,turnrate
nullimage.png

 

 

From the document I'm referencing (HAF-F16-Supplement), the STR for the F-16C at 5000ft with F100-PW-229 engine, 0 drag index and ~27000 pounds of fuel is just above 16°/s

In similar conditions (M-2000C, full internal fuel, no stores 5000ft) the Mirage does just bellow 16°/s:

unknown.png?width=863&height=578

Close but still under the F-16.

Still, we won't tune the module to match popular belief comparison of the Mirage with other aircraft.

I will nonetheless talk with our SMEs about the low altitude performances to try and see if there is something to improve.

Thanks.


Edited by myHelljumper

Helljumper - M2000C Guru

 

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42 минуты назад, myHelljumper сказал:

In similar conditions (M-2000C, full internal fuel, no stores 5000ft) the Mirage does just bellow 16°/s:

Even with full internal fuel M-2000C has better turn rate (up to 1 deg/sec) than f-16c ~ 27000 pounds GW

full fuel.png

44 минуты назад, myHelljumper сказал:

Still, we won't tune the module to match popular belief comparison of the Mirage with other aircraft.

RGR

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"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

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These charts don't do justice to the F-16, they stop before corner speed where the viper shines.

Large deltas have a flatter turn rate curve as they need to take less AoA than small regular wings at low speed (especially with slats). On the other hand they have a significantly higher drag at high speed / low AoA than viper like wings.

Check Mirage III and KFir charts : STR curve is very flat over a broad speed range.

The Mirage 2000 performance chart from the Northrop symposium, that is shared in the forums, has low value. Turn rate is overall lower than a Mirage III which doesn't make sense with the latest M53P2 engine. It also has a wrong shape (slope is too high)

 

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9 часов назад, Kercheiz сказал:

These charts don't do justice to the F-16, they stop before corner speed where the viper shines.

Ok, then let's go to altitude 10000feet and compare with "HAF-F16-Supplement" with some fuel quantity 820kg
https://dcs.silver.ru/96,151,mach,turnrate

image.png

Viper shines only after 1.16M! Before 1.16M shines only Mirage 🙂 This is really mean that F-16C has better turn rate than Mirage-2000C ?

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"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

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30.09.2022 в 04:23, myHelljumper сказал:

 

While the DCS M-2000C FM is surely not perfect and might need some adjustments, we are confident that our simulation of the Mirage 2000C is the most accurate possible.

It turns out that in previous versions the flight characteristics were incorrect?

While there is a feeling that the mirage with each patch is becoming more maneuverable to match the competing modules.

Получается в предыдущих версиях летные характеристики были неправильные?

Пока складывается ощущение что мираж с каждым патчем становится все маневреннее чтоб соответствовать конкурирующим модулям.

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8 hours ago, Vyacheslav said:

It turns out that in previous versions the flight characteristics were incorrect?

While there is a feeling that the mirage with each patch is becoming more maneuverable to match the competing modules.

Получается в предыдущих версиях летные характеристики были неправильные?

Пока складывается ощущение что мираж с каждым патчем становится все маневреннее чтоб соответствовать конкурирующим модулям.

No, previous version were intermediate tuning of the engine and FM.

There is no matching of the Mirage with other "competing" modules, we are only following SME feedback and comparing the FM against known data points and procedures.

A SME just confirmed to me that the low altitude behavior is correct, there is nothing to tune on the Mirage FM for now.

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15 hours ago, Vyacheslav said:

It turns out that in previous versions the flight characteristics were incorrect?

Well, first of all, every model is incorrect. Even the best one. It's a model.

Old model wasn't bad, especially considering the limited amount of data. The new model is more accurate.

 

15 hours ago, Vyacheslav said:

While there is a feeling that the mirage with each patch is becoming more maneuverable to match the competing modules.

Absolutely not.

 - The engine update was focused on getting realistic thrust, fuel consumption and transient behavior. Only this. It had the side effect of unrealistically increasing some turn performances, in some areas of the flight domain. We acknowledged since the day 1 of engine update that FM needed an update.

 - Following update was a quick and dirty drag increase in order to mitigate the issue, from user demand, as the FM study was taking more time. We communicated on it, that it was just a simple tweak of the old FM as a temporary measure.

 - The new FM was actually never compared to other aircraft during the study. The only goal is to provide the most accurate model possible, and especially to make every known procedure possible.

The biggest flaw of previous FM was a much too high STR at very low speed (<140kts) and low altitude. It's now fixed and I already had some dogfighters complaining about the fix. By the way, dcs.silver.ru are inaccurate as this abnormal STR did not show in the charts, I don't know why. Some discontinuities in the old FM are also overly smoothed.

The vast majority of DCS players are single player and PvE focusing more on being able to perform the real break procedures, emergency landings, etc... The french air force is actually using the M-2000C module for training. Balancing dogfight is not in the priorities, even if dogfighting is fun..

 

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13.07.2022 в 17:50, Kercheiz сказал:

I just tried an empty aircraft (300kg fuel, clean) with unlimited fuel, and the temperature setting to the minimum allowed in Caucasus of -12.4°C, 21 december, midnight

I managed to increase CAS by 3kts (from 86 to 89) then it decreased quickly to 60kts and I stopped the test.

Any other trial with standard temperature (15°C) and at least 1T fuel and you immediately loose all your speed.

TacView is attached.

Conclusion
That's currently not possible without cheating by modifying files.

 

15 часов назад, Kercheiz сказал:

The biggest flaw of previous FM was a much too high STR at very low speed (<140kts) and low altitude. It's now fixed and I already had some dogfighters complaining about the fix. By the way, dcs.silver.ru are inaccurate as this abnormal STR did not show in the charts, I don't know why

Why do you always have two opposite versions of the same problem? 🙂

Data from dcs.silver.ru is not calculated data, this is measured data for every speed (with step 10km/h). I'm attach .trk and TacView files for proof it many times.

Therefore, if you got other data, then most likely you have ITR data instead STR 🙂

 

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

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22 minutes ago, totmacher said:

 

Why do you always have two opposite versions of the same problem? 🙂

Data from dcs.silver.ru is not calculated data, this is measured data for every speed (with step 10km/h). I'm attach .trk and TacView files for proof it many times.

Therefore, if you got other data, then most likely you have ITR data instead STR 🙂

 

I know what I'm writing, and yes the dcs.silver.ru has an issue for measuring STR values in DCS at low speeds.

An issue I know well in the previous model strangely doesn't appear on the charts.

  • Is the aircraft piloted manually during measurements or with some AP script?
  • Is there any smoothing of the values?
  • If flown manually how do you handle the FPM being off HUD at high AoA to control zero climb and stable speed?

Anyway.. dcs.silver.ru is a really neat tool, being able to compare DCS aircraft performance is nice. Don't take it personally if I write (and again, I know what I'm writing) that part of the data isn't accurate

 


Edited by Kercheiz
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10 минут назад, Kercheiz сказал:

I know what I'm writing, and yes the dcs.silver.ru has an issue for measuring STR values in DCS at low speeds.

An issue I know well in the previous model strangely doesn't appear on the charts.

Then tell please  the weight, height, speed, when the aircraft behaves incorrectly on the charts. I'm verify it.

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

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15 minutes ago, totmacher said:

Then tell please  the weight, height, speed, when the aircraft behaves incorrectly on the charts. I'm verify it.

In the old FM (<=2.7.15) for instance, there is a significant STR spike around corner speed (about 2dps high) that is totally missed in your charts. (By the way you should go a little bit higher in speed, you're often missing the corner speed)

Also, there was a very high STR achievable at very low speed (about 100-140KTS CAS) , typically above 20dps, that is very well documented in user's videos, tacviews, forums, that we never denied and (finally) fixed in the new FM. I'm surprised your charts don't show it. I suspect the low speed flying was done manually without visible FPM and Chevrons and thus at unstable speed and/or level.

 

 


Edited by Kercheiz
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53 минуты назад, Kercheiz сказал:
  • Is the aircraft piloted manually during measurements or with some AP script?
  • Is there any smoothing of the values?
  • If flown manually how do you handle the FPM being off HUD at high AoA to control zero climb and stable speed?

Aircraft piloted by turn autopilot script, all data getting directly through DCS API interface. No smoothing values algorithms used. You can see details on this page:
https://dcs.silver.ru/About
 

27 минут назад, Kercheiz сказал:

In the old FM (<=2.7.15) for instance, there is a significant STR spike around corner speed (about 2dps high) that is totally missed in your charts. (By the way you should go a little bit higher in speed, you're often missing the corner speed)

I'm have 2.5.6 version, will check one more time.
Although the interval between these two measurements is almost a year and the difference is visible within the margin of error
https://dcs.silver.ru/21,54,IAS_kts,zoom,turnrate

34 минуты назад, Kercheiz сказал:

Also, there was a very high STR achievable at very low speed (about 100-140KTS CAS) , typically above 20dps, that is very well documented in user's videos, tacviews, forums, that we never denied and (finally) fixed in the new FM. I'm surprised your charts don't show it. I suspect the low speed flying was done manually without visible FPM and Chevrons and thus at unstable speed and/or level.

I'am don't have any data on speed less than 140kias at all 🙂 turn autopilot don't able hold sustained flight on this speed 🙂

1 час назад, Kercheiz сказал:

Don't take it personally if I write (and again, I know what I'm writing) that part of the data isn't accurate

I'm interested only for research purposes 🙂

 

"Своя FM не пахнет" (С) me
https://dcs.silver.ru/ DCS World Sustained Turn Test Data

Asus Z97M-PLUS, Intel Core i5 4690K OC 4126MHz, 16Gb DDR3 DIMM 2250MHz (10-10-10-26 CR2), GeForce GTX 1060 6GB

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Ny - M-2000C,M-2000C (3).png

Ny - M-2000C,M-2000C (2).png

 

your M2K should be 900 kg heavier,then it will converge with the current schedule of real aircraft


Edited by SandMartin

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  • ED Team
On 9/29/2022 at 8:17 PM, myHelljumper said:

We compared the DCS Mirage performance with the F-16C performance document available on the internet and the Mirage STR was always bellow the F-16C, I don't know how accurate the DCS F-16C FM is regarding STR but we can't adjust the Mirage FM based on other modules.

Particularly with the recent Viper flight model and FLCS improvements, we are quite satisfied with its performance when compared to detailed reference material. Whilst we cannot directly speak with the M-2000C flight model and FCS, we have every confidence in RAZBAM to accurately model performance based on limited reference data.

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Seems that was happened in the fight shown in the first post is exactly what Sam ''Slammer'' Richardson (former Tomcat pilot) describes in this video regarding a fight between an A-4 and an F-16 , that confuses even real pilots . Watch 1:08:41 forward  . 

 


Edited by jaguara5
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On 10/2/2022 at 2:41 PM, myHelljumper said:

No, previous version were intermediate tuning of the engine and FM.

There is no matching of the Mirage with other "competing" modules, we are only following SME feedback and comparing the FM against known data points and procedures.

A SME just confirmed to me that the low altitude behavior is correct, there is nothing to tune on the Mirage FM for now.

Thx for you efforts!  If you remember some days ago i have raised in the discord a question regarding that high g turn shown at 1:19 forward in the solo display video , where it seemed that in game the plane bleeds less speed under the same flying conditions ( assuming  the ac is sleek and with almost full internal fuel). The discussion was that perhaps that difference (20+ kts in a 90 degr. turn which ofc is not small) could be caused by a temperature difference between the 2 flights - real life and dcs  (since the real weather conditions from the display are not known). However, i've tried to replicate some other turns form the display, especially the mini sustained turns shown at 1:56 forward (in the real video) and from my very limited testing (have not much time to fly currently) i couldn't  detect an obvious performance difference between the module and the tape, like that in the first described turn. If you could look perhaps with the SME closer a that specific parameter. Currently, in game  you can easily maintain speed or even  overspeed at lower altitudes   with high g inputs , perhaps it's related with the above observations.  if you already have done that (as you 've perhaps  indicated above), plz ignore my message. And thx again  for you passion to bring the module as close as possible to the real thing

null

image.png


Edited by jaguara5
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  • 9 months later...

I believe I can get more insight here.


So, could anyone share your opinion on the following, and at the G load comparison table at the post below also ?

( Mirage 2000 C vs MiG-29 A Sustained Turn rates - the post where I experiment G loads at 5 different airspeeds. )

Thank you

 

 


Edited by Top Jockey

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One question:

Is the fix about the before mentioned high sustained turn rates implemented already ?

Thank you.

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6 minutes ago, Top Jockey said:

Is the fix about the before mentioned high sustained turn rates implemented already ?

Yes.

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11 hours ago, Ramsay said:

Yes.

 

Thank  you.

The only document I have with E.M. diagrams say's NATOPS, but is 'compiled' from another sim, so I don't know to which extent the diagrams are true to real life:

- it is for the Mirage 2000-5F variant, and I don't know if this variant performance differs much from the -C variant in real life.
(if they perform differently in real life in terms of E.M., then the document is of no use for this comparison)

 

My point is, in the conditions:

- sea level

- 2 x IR missiles

- total weight 9.3 t ( 20.600 lbs )

- at 440 kts ( IAS ) ~ Mach 0.65

The E.M. diagram (for the -5F) shows  roughly 7.2 ~ 7.3 G's ... in the same conditions in DCS (with the -C) I'm getting 8.3 G's.

 

Could anyone share some insight of what I might be doing wrong ?

Thank you.


Edited by Top Jockey

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4 hours ago, Top Jockey said:

The only document I have with E.M. diagrams say's NATOPS, but is 'compiled' from another sim, so I don't know to which extent the diagrams are true to real life:

- it is for the Mirage 2000-5F variant, and I don't know if this variant performance differs much from the -C variant in real life.
(if they perform differently in real life in terms of E.M., then the document is of no use for this comparison)

The most often "quoted" Mirage 2000C EM diagram is from a Northrop document "Fighter Weapons Symposium for the Royal Malaysian Air Force" promoting their F-20.
It is only an "estimation" and does not represent the performance of the "real" aircraft.

Razbam have made use of it, as SME feedback and their own reasearch is that it is of the "right" shape

2022-07-13, Mirage_2000C_FM_and_CDVE_rework.png

... Razbam have then adjusted the DCS flight model so that it matches some known SOP data points such as an engine 40NM glide from 30k ft and over head paterns/breaks with known turn radi, speeds, etc.

2022-11-03 EM Chart with verified data point, unknown.png

There is more detail and DCS Mirage 2000C EM diagrams in this thread
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/318436-care-to-share-your-resources-and-data-about-the-m2k-performance/?do=findComment&comment=5143613

 

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58 minutes ago, Ramsay said:

The most often "quoted" Mirage 2000C EM diagram is from a Northrop document "Fighter Weapons Symposium for the Royal Malaysian Air Force" promoting their F-20.
It is only an "estimation" and does not represent the performance of the "real" aircraft.

Razbam have made use of it, as SME feedback and their own reasearch is that it is of the "right" shape

2022-07-13, Mirage_2000C_FM_and_CDVE_rework.png

... Razbam have then adjusted the DCS flight model so that it matches some known SOP data points such as an engine 40NM glide from 30k ft and over head paterns/breaks with known turn radi, speeds, etc.

2022-11-03 EM Chart with verified data point, unknown.png

There is more detail and DCS Mirage 2000C EM diagrams in this thread
https://forum.dcs.world/topic/318436-care-to-share-your-resources-and-data-about-the-m2k-performance/?do=findComment&comment=5143613

 

 

Thank you @Ramsay.

Will look into it !

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