Jump to content

TWS launches and enemy RWR behavior.


Biggus

Recommended Posts

Hi guys,

When a Phoenix is launched in TWS at around 40nm, what sort of warning should be picked up on the target's RWR?  I'd always believed that the missile would go active depending on the target size at around 10nm or thereabouts, but apparently this is not the case, and that the missile launch is able to be detected immediately..

There's an explanation from a user in that linked thread, but I'm not sure I believe it.

  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's a bug. I'll have to see if it also includes player aircraft. As for the user "explanation" CW isn't used for guiding Phoenixes, and the Tomcat is _always_ using HRPF PD because the AWG-9 doesn't use MRPF and only uses LPRF for pulse, which can't communicate with the AIM-54. You could argue that an RWR could theoretically pick up on seeker steering commands passed to the AIM-54 by the AWG-9, but if that were the case, AIM-120s and SD-10s should also trigger a launch indication in TWS. 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Am 14.7.2022 um 04:07 schrieb Biggus:

When a Phoenix is launched in TWS at around 40nm, what sort of warning should be picked up on the target's RWR

You should only see the F-14 as search radar so "nails 14"

Am 14.7.2022 um 04:07 schrieb Biggus:

that the missile launch is able to be detected immediately

The featured Bug report used AI Tomcats to simulate an launch. Those always use STT, which allow to detected a phoenix launch

This is an AI issue not a Tomcat TWS issue. Player TWS launches will not give a launch warning. I would assume AI just doesn't have a system like TWS and it was substituted with STT launches.

You even cited your own thread dude, just read what we wrote in there it's not that hard. Why open the can of worms again? We already know the issue and if you reported it correctly it might get changed but you literally posted the same thing not even mentioning the results of our discussion. Like what do you expect man?


Edited by mettschnitte
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, mettschnitte said:

You should only see the F-14 as search radar so "nails 14"

The featured Bug report used AI Tomcats to simulate an launch. Those always use STT, which allow to detected a phoenix launch

This is an AI issue not a Tomcat TWS issue. Player TWS launches will not give a launch warning. I would assume AI just doesn't have a system like TWS and it was substituted with STT launches.

You even cited your own thread dude, just read what we wrote in there it's not that hard. Why open the can of worms again? We already know the issue and if you reported it correctly it might get changed but you literally posted the same thing not even mentioning the results of our discussion. Like what do you expect man?

 

As per @near_blind's response, check the post times.

This thread was created only in response to a "correct as-is" tag being attached to the bug post title after almost no movement since May and no subsequent feedback until after I created this thread here because I wasn't 100% sure.

 

Perhaps you can expand a bit on what you think the bug is?  Because being in a Mirage 2000 four ship flight on the receiving end of four phoenixes from a single AI F-14 produces the expected results, nails from a 14 until the final few seconds when the missiles go active.  In the ED modules, this does not happen.  It's nails until launch at over 30nm and instantly active.


Edited by Biggus
Expanded a bit.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Biggus:

Perhaps you can expand a bit on what you think the bug is

I think this is a problem about AI interaction with ED's RWR. Like i said what i think is happening is the following: The AI does not have a standard capability for TWS launches so they replaced this with multiple STT locks (Quote: "They never launch in TWS"). But with a caviat: They told the RWR to only show nails (by code don't ask me how). Somehow this information on "staying silent" did not make it to the RWRs you mentioned (10/16/18). Keep in mind i am not an ED dev and only verbalising what i see and hear.

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Biggus:

check the post times

I see, if we assume "correct as is" means "we ignore this thread" it makes sense to open a second one. I was rambling because you did not throughly elaborate on neither the actual issue you are facing nor the results of our discussion in the earlier thread a few days ago and just left that up for ED staff to figure out. I think we should make it as easy for them as possible to analyze and solve the issue. But I still want to apologize for my rudeness, went a bit ahead of myself.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Accepted.

My understanding of your position is this:

AI cannot perform TWS guided launches, so therefore ED has created a virtual-TWS by allowing AI to use a multiple STT method to appear TWS-like.  Third party developers know about this behavior and coded their RWRs to hide the active-missile behavior until those missiles reach their activation distance, but ED has not.

Is this correct?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, Biggus said:

Accepted.

My understanding of your position is this:

AI cannot perform TWS guided launches, so therefore ED has created a virtual-TWS by allowing AI to use a multiple STT method to appear TWS-like.  Third party developers know about this behavior and coded their RWRs to hide the active-missile behavior until those missiles reach their activation distance, but ED has not.

Is this correct?

Incorrect. AI in DCS can use TWS and that should be indicated correctly. But this is controlled on EDs side as to which aircraft can use it etc.

The RWR in an aircraft just repeats what it get sent by other objects in DCS, i.e. if an object is in search, locking you or launching at you (SARH).

Our RWR does not change this. I can't speak for other modules ofc but I doubt it's different.

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

@Naquaii thanks for your input.

So as per my original bug reports, the AI is using TWS to engage multiple targets and ED-developed aircraft get an active missile warning as soon as they leave the rail at any range. This behavior is currently marked "correct as-is".

I've tagged BN in that thread, asking for a review.  Failing that, I don't really know how to push this further.  It's technically an ED problem and not really an HB problem beyond it impacting AI F-14s and human players in ED modules.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, Biggus said:

@Naquaii thanks for your input.

So as per my original bug reports, the AI is using TWS to engage multiple targets and ED-developed aircraft get an active missile warning as soon as they leave the rail at any range. This behavior is currently marked "correct as-is".

I've tagged BN in that thread, asking for a review.  Failing that, I don't really know how to push this further.  It's technically an ED problem and not really an HB problem beyond it impacting AI F-14s and human players in ED modules.

Was this not exclusive to FC3 aircraft initially?

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

http://www.heatblur.com/

 

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, IronMike said:

Was this not exclusive to FC3 aircraft initially?

Unknown at this stage.  I haven't tested with FC3 aircraft at all, as I do not own them.  I've only tested with the Hornet, the Viper and the Warthog.

Here's three quick tracks to demonstrate what I'm reporting.  Note that in the player controlled Tomcat, the behavior is exactly as I would have expected (except perhaps that Jester is a bit quick to call out those launches, but that's debatable).  These are on Persian Gulf, but I can supply tracks for other maps showing the same result.

AIM54_RWR_Viper_PG.trk AIM54_RWR_Hornet_PG.trk AIM54_RWR_Tomcat_PG.trk


Edited by Biggus
Added tracks.
Link to comment
Share on other sites

16 hours ago, Biggus said:

Unknown at this stage.  I haven't tested with FC3 aircraft at all, as I do not own them.  I've only tested with the Hornet, the Viper and the Warthog.

Here's three quick tracks to demonstrate what I'm reporting.  Note that in the player controlled Tomcat, the behavior is exactly as I would have expected (except perhaps that Jester is a bit quick to call out those launches, but that's debatable).  These are on Persian Gulf, but I can supply tracks for other maps showing the same result.

AIM54_RWR_Viper_PG.trk 962.75 kB · 0 downloads AIM54_RWR_Hornet_PG.trk 1.05 MB · 0 downloads AIM54_RWR_Tomcat_PG.trk 200.55 kB · 0 downloads

 

Thank you. In general tracks on Caucasus are best, because other maps cannot be debugged. Also this is something to be please reported to ED, there is nothing we can do about it.

  • Thanks 1

Heatblur Simulations

 

Please feel free to contact me anytime, either via PM here, on the forums, or via email through the contact form on our homepage.

 

http://www.heatblur.com/

 

https://www.facebook.com/heatblur/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, IronMike said:

Thank you. In general tracks on Caucasus are best, because other maps cannot be debugged. Also this is something to be please reported to ED, there is nothing we can do about it.

Not a problem.  The link in the first post is to the Viper bug subforum, and there's a separate post in the Hornet and Warthog bug forums.  Those include Caucasus tracks.  The problem I've reached is that ED have marked this as "correct as-is" though, hence this thread.  Will see whether ED decides to change the status of that bug report.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...