Mirage F1 in air combat

[Leviathan667]

Hi,

How would you expect the Mirage F1CE to perform in WVR guns only 1v1 against a : 

• MiG-21, 23, 29/Su-27
• F-4, -14,-15,-16,-18 or -104
• Mirage III or J-35

What do we know of the plane’s performance in terms of turn rate, instantaneous and sustained at different altitudes? 

[Get_Lo]

to be VERY SIMPLE and I repeat VERY SIMPLE (there are exceptions)
Beats (generally):
MiG-21
F4
F104
Mirage 3

Loses to (generally):
Mig-23 (assuming you're talking about the MLA)
Mig-29
Su-27
F-14/15/16/18

No clue: 
J35

and for those in the back THIS IS GENERALLY, im sure you're a beast in the MiG-21 and can kill many F-15s



 

Edited July 17, 2022 by Get_Lo

[Nexus-6]

Without going into detail:

- It should handily defeat a Fishbed, Starfighter, and possibly the Mirage III.

- It will almost definitely struggle against an MLA or MLD Flogger.

- Fulcrums, Flankers, and the 4th Generation of American iron will slaughter it.

[Get_Lo]

Here is what a Mirage 3 pilot said about dueling the F1
 

Mirage III versus Mirage F1

“The Mirage F1 was a completely different thing. They had a lot of advantages over the Mirage III: Better engine, 7200 kgs against our 6700; the aircraft was a ton lighter; it had no need for external tanks so always flew in a full clean configuration; automatic slats and flaps; and better radar and a HUD. Only the weapons were equal: Sidewinders and guns. To dogfight them was real hard work for us. We had to emphasise mutual support to stop them entering firing range. If we reached an advantageous position on one of them, they only had to zoom up and comfortably wait up there for us to nose down and generate sufficient speed to follow. Our only resource was the diving acceleration, so the usual tactic was fly towards them at full throttle, kill the speed to get a position to fire the Sidewinder and escape diving like hell. I remember the F1 pilots complaining because we always tried to avoid close dogfight. Our answer always was: give us your engine and your automatic slats/flaps and we’ll stay for close dogfight.” 

[Ala13_ManOWar]

I believe I already told this story somewhere else. I recall an ex-F-4C pilot conference (also in Spanish service) telling they had this problem with F1s every time they fought in trainings, F1 came high (about 30.000ft) while Phantom usually came in about 15.000 ft (IIRC the numbers), and they struggle saying, "for you to get a kill on me up there, you better come down here so I get a kill on you". That was C version, we'll get at first a not quite early E which would be more powerful for sure, but still F1 apparently can manage itself as long as you know your strong points.

[Bremspropeller]

15 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

They had a lot of advantages over the Mirage III: Better engine, 7200 kgs against our 6700; the aircraft was a ton lighter

Not only is the F1 500kg heavier than the MIII, the MIII also has roudabout 700kg less thrust (6000kg) than quoted.

15 hours ago, Nexus-6 said:

- It will almost definitely struggle against an MLA or MLD Flogger.

With the S530F and Magic II, I think they should be pretty much on par with strengths and weaknesses each. The F1's relative lack of thrust would certainly be a factor.

15 hours ago, Nexus-6 said:

- Fulcrums, Flankers, and the 4th Generation of American iron will slaughter it.

WVR yeah, certainly.

In BVR, I wouldn't underappreciate the S530F in an 80s setup. Especially against a pre-AMRAAM Viper (not too many Block 15 ADFs around outside the US).

[QuiGon]

3 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

In BVR, I wouldn't underappreciate the S530F in an 80s setup. Especially against a pre-AMRAAM Viper (not too many Block 15 ADFs around outside the US).

That's a bit of an odd argument. Of course the F1 will have a decent chance in BVR when fighting against a WVR only opponent like the F-16A.

Edited July 18, 2022 by QuiGon

[Bremspropeller]

9 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

That's a bit of an odd argument. Of course the F1 will have a decent chance in BVR when fighting against a WVR only opponent like the F-16A.

Not really, since

a) it's not completely toast at all, as implied by the post I was quoting

b) the prior generation 530s would be easily defeated and hence not present much of a threat against F-16As.

 

[QuiGon]

24 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Not really, since

a) it's not completely toast at all, as implied by the post I was quoting

b) the prior generation 530s would be easily defeated and hence not present much of a threat against F-16As.

I wouldn't really call 530s BVR missiles in the first place (unlike S530s).

Edited July 18, 2022 by QuiGon

[Bremspropeller]

40 minutes ago, QuiGon said:

I wouldn't really call 530s BVR missiles in the first place (unlike S530s).

Not by today's standards. But shooting somebodyin the face, in cloud/ at night, was quite BVR'ish in the 60s.

[F-2]

The f1-m53 (superior to our f1) was considered 90% as capable as the mirage 2000. The mirage 2000 with the updated m53 struggled with the Mig-29 in Indian service. Against the later Mig-23 our F1 would struggle but might match well with early versions. Similarly the F-4 has the potential to be a tough target. The Iraqi F-1 with upgraded weapons was capable of killing F-14A in the Iran Iraq war.

[Kev2go]

On 7/18/2022 at 9:25 AM, Bremspropeller said:

Not only is the F1 500kg heavier than the MIII, the MIII also has roudabout 700kg less thrust (6000kg) than quoted.

With the S530F and Magic II, I think they should be pretty much on par with strengths and weaknesses each. The F1's relative lack of thrust would certainly be a factor.

WVR yeah, certainly.

In BVR, I wouldn't underappreciate the S530F in an 80s setup. Especially against a pre-AMRAAM Viper (not too many Block 15 ADFs around outside the US).

Even though the Mirage F1 counts as a 3rd generation aircraft. the issue is still radar limitations. even for its timeframe.   American 4th gen teen fighters have Radars with planar array antennas with digital signal processing . save for  tomcat, even though its its a Analog PD, it is still a proper PD radar.

Cyrano 4 is Pulse radar cassegrain antenna with MTI like functions for lookdown (  that mode which wasn't known for being particularly useful for that purpose) . I think its even more limited than the Saphir radar of the Mig23MLA/MLD,  for air to air which is also an MTI radar.

 

I cant find any information whether the F1 has an IFF interrogator, It would be unfortunate if it didnt, since many other aircraft of same generation already did in that timeframe.

[Bremspropeller]

1 hour ago, Kev2go said:

American 4th gen teen fighters have Radars with planar array antennas with digital signal processing . save for  tomcat, even though its its a Analog PD, it is still a proper PD radar.

And in pre-AMRAAM days, they're still tied to a fairly short range Sparrow shot (unless we're talking AIM-54), which certainly isn't better than a S530F.

[Kev2go]

9 hours ago, Bremspropeller said:

And in pre-AMRAAM days, they're still tied to a fairly short range Sparrow shot (unless we're talking AIM-54), which certainly isn't better than a S530F.

 

cant use the full potential of such missiles if you have a finicky radar  or also have to deal with a higher risk of blue on blue in bvr lacking an IFF interrogator. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Kev2go

[Bremspropeller]

38 minutes ago, Kev2go said:

cant use the full potential of such missiles if you have a finicky radar  or also have to deal with a higher risk of blue on blue in bvr lacking an IFF interrogator. 

Yeah. The allies were pretty apprehensive of the Mirage's capabilities before DS nonetheless.

The iraqis did rather well against the Tomcats, certainly far from being slaughtered. Granted they had to use a pretty tactical approach, not quite ready to be applied on your run of the mill airquake-server. It's going to be alright in realistic or semi-realistic setups.

So you're scared of blue on blue? Well, life's a box of chocolates. Hon hon hon.

 

[Kev2go]

43 minutes ago, Bremspropeller said:

Yeah. The allies were pretty apprehensive of the Mirage's capabilities before DS nonetheless.

The iraqis did rather well against the Tomcats, certainly far from being slaughtered. Granted they had to use a pretty tactical approach, not quite ready to be applied on your run of the mill airquake-server. It's going to be alright in realistic or semi-realistic setups.

So you're scared of blue on blue? Well, life's a box of chocolates. Hon hon hon.

 

It's going to be alright when it's facing f5s , mig21s ,  and future f4's and mig23 yes 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Kev2go

[Snappy]

1 hour ago, Kev2go said:

 

cant use the full potential of such missiles if you have a finicky radar  or also have to deal with a higher risk of blue on blue in bvr lacking an IFF interrogator. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Well it does have an IFF system, so that problem is mitigated.See the manual released by Aerges already for further information.

it’s not yet functional in the first release, but I assume it will receive functionality in a future update.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Snappy

[WinterH]

21 minutes ago, Snappy said:

Well it does have an IFF system

It doesn't have an interrogator as far as I know. It's only a transponder to say "oh hey! I'm friendly!" to those who ask, but we can't ask the question ourselves. Same deal with F-5E.

[Snappy]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

It doesn't have an interrogator as far as I know. It's only a transponder to say "oh hey! I'm friendly!" to those who ask, but we can't ask the question ourselves. Same deal with F-5E.

Hmm, the text says „The transponder permits the identification, friend or foe, of an aircraft.“ and not something „allows identification of ownship as friendly.“

guess we will see .

edit: Ok I get it now, since it’s called transponder, you’re probably right, it will not be able to interrogate.

Edited July 20, 2022 by Snappy

[unknown]

1 minute ago, Snappy said:

Hmm, the text says „The transponder permits the identification, friend or foe, of an aircraft.“ and not something „allows identification of ownship as friendly.“

guess we will see .

Speeking in IFF terms, the transponder is the system on your aircraft/ship/whatever that "answers" an "IFF question" with "i'm friendly" if the code/mode matches. This is only modelled in the JF-17 atm if i'm not mistaken, every other DCS module uses the simplified IFF version of DCS -> own side friend.

The interrogator is the system that is "asking" other aircrafts/ships/whatever the "IFF question are you friendly?"

So, with an interrogator you can IFF other aircraft yourself and the transponder in the other aircraft will answer, you will see this as IFF identification on your radar(friend or not). If your own aircraft only has an IFF transponder and not an interrogator you can only emit the signal "i'm friendly" if someone is "asking your aircraft" but you can not see if another aircraft is friendly or not because you can not "ask" the "question".

[pappavis]

On 7/17/2022 at 11:23 PM, Nexus-6 said:

 

- It should handily defeat a Fishbed, Starfighter, and possibly the Mirage III.

Done. Okt-1982. The 1980s Suid-Afrikaanse Lugmag (South African Airforce) Mirage F1s engaged multiple times with MiG-21s and MiG-23s in Angola

 

On 7/17/2022 at 11:23 PM, Nexus-6 said:

- It will almost definitely struggle against an MLA or MLD Flogger.

Suid-Afrikaanse Lugmag. Done. 27-Sep-1987. 

https://saafmuseum.org.za/arthur-d-piercy-27th-september-1987/

Static display, Brakpan Vliegveld, Apr-2022.

[WinterH]

IMO:
- F-14, 15, 16, 18 as well as MiG-29 and Su-27: There's little point in comparison. If we assume everything being neural, these will win 9/10, possibly more. Doesn't matter guns only, WVR missiles, or BVR. Iraqis did have some success, but those were ambushes and still the exchange ratio wasn't in favor of the Mirage afaik.

- F4, especially the slatted F-4E's we have: I think Mirage F1 will more often be the winner in WVR fights, be it with missiles or guns. Slatted F-4E can fare a little better, and it'll also have thrust advantage, but overall the Mirage will be the more nimble and easier to keep controlled bird out of two imo. BVR, is interesting. Mirage's radar can do *some* lookdown, from what I understand a lot more so than at least the earlier F-4's radar. It also seems to be fairly straightforward to use. But F-4 will have twice the missiles, and likely more countermeasures too. Unless/until Mirage gets Super 530F (that'll likely happen we get the F-4 anyway), with only R530s Mirage will be very disadvantaged regardless. With Super 530F though, they should be roughly the same, perhaps even slightly better than AIM-7Fs F-4 will get.

- F-5E, I think they'll be quite close in dogfighting performance, Mirage will have better overall thrust probably. F-5E can use uncaging feature with AIM-9P and P5 missiles, this doesn't seem to be a feature for the F1. But overall missile options seem to be very close between the two. Also Mirage's close in quick acquisiton modes seem to be better. When it comes to longer ranged stuff though, F-5 just doesn't have any. R530s won't be overly useful against a vigilant F-5 imo, but once Super 530F is around, that one will be a significant asset in this comparison. Also, in a dogfight scenario, carrying those bulky 530s, or even Super 530s may end up being more of a hindrance than an asset for the Mirage.

- MiG-21Bis: I believe MiG wins the acceleration and climbing contests between the two, as well as low speed/high AoA handling. However, I'd think Mirage's peak turn performance will be better, and cockpit ergonomics are also better. I do think there is a chance for this to be the most threatening of the oldie fighters against the Mirage in dogfights, but MiG is rather hard to fly well while dogfighting. So it'll take a skilled MiG pilot to capitalize on it potentially being dangerous to Mirage. When it comes to radar jousting though, once Super 530F is a thing, MiG will need to approach the things very defensively.

- MiG-23MLA: BVR fights, I think MiG will handily outperform the Mirage. Maybe with Super 530F it will be somewhat more even, but overall MiG has everything that matters in BVR on its side: better radar, more reliable look down capability, overall better missiles, much better speed and acceleration, IRST system, medium ranged IR guided R-24T missiles... only caveat is normally MLA doesn't get any countermeasures, but we'll get the Iraqi modifications which bolt on some as an option. WVR though, I personally thing 7 out of 10 Mirage can handle it. In South African service, originally they didn't do well with rear aspect Magic Is against mostly all aspect R-60M equipped MiG-23s apparently, but our Mirage will have AIM-9JULI available to it. If you purely look at numbers, MiG-23MLA can turn ok, but getting good dogfighting performance out of 23 was notoriously difficult and while from ML on improvements were made, only the last version, the MLD can be said to have mostly overcome those issues.

Mirage III: Shouldn't be too much of a problem really, with missile options limited to Magic Is, it may have some chance perhaps, but overall F1 was designed overcome its dogfighting issues.

Draken: Sadly we don't have one  mostly shares the missile issues with Mirage III afaik, though it may have eventually gotten decent AIM-9J and or P variants, perhaps. It should be an interesting match up, but I think overall Mirage would be happier in the fight. I don't know as much about J35 as I would like to TBH.

[Bremspropeller]

22 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Iraqis did have some success, but those were ambushes and still the exchange ratio wasn't in favor of the Mirage afaik.

It supposedly was 5:5 against Tomcats. Would have to check for F-4 data.

It would be really fortunate to have Iran's opinion on the Mirage vs F-14s (post DS, when Iran had F1s themselves) and Iraq's opinion on the Mirage vs MiG-23 when they used them both together.

 

Edited July 20, 2022 by Bremspropeller

[cmbaviator]

will there be server that restrict certain aircraft against the F1 ?

[mettschnitte]

@cmbaviator The Enigma Cold War Server for example will put the F1 in an according time frame. On Blue it will fight against mig-21/19 and on Red against F-5/Viggen. Which i think are all a good match. The F1 will find it's place in terms of cost and performance. There is no 4th gen fighter in this server.