LAU-138’s BOL-IR and BOL

[DSplayer]

During the latest F-14 Tomcast episode, Tung describes utilizing BOL-IR with 3 BOL (LAU-138) rails along with the the 2 buckets of 30 for a total 540 flare charges on his F-14D over Afghanistan.

Of course the F-14D and F-14B (U) used the ALE-47 instead of the older ALE-39 but I would think you should still be able to load flare charges (MJU-52/B) into the LAU-138 and fire them off one at a time from the rails. Also firing 4 of these BOL packages at a time from each rail (like we have in-game right now) doesn’t sound right anymore after hearing about how they were used by both Jungle and Tung in their respective Tomcast episodes (but they were both F-14D pilots so that could be the difference).

 

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/mju-52.htm

[Naquaii]

8 hours ago, DSplayer said:

During the latest F-14 Tomcast episode, Tung describes utilizing BOL-IR with 3 BOL (LAU-138) rails along with the the 2 buckets of 30 for a total 540 flare charges on his F-14D over Afghanistan.

Of course the F-14D and F-14B (U) used the ALE-47 instead of the older ALE-39 but I would think you should still be able to load flare charges (MJU-52/B) into the LAU-138 and fire them off one at a time from the rails. Also firing 4 of these BOL packages at a time from each rail (like we have in-game right now) doesn’t sound right anymore after hearing about how they were used by both Jungle and Tung in their respective Tomcast episodes (but they were both F-14D pilots so that could be the difference).

 

https://man.fas.org/dod-101/sys/ac/equip/mju-52.htm

Not really sure how they used 3 BOLs or if that was an F-14D thing. The information we have points to 1A and 8A being the only ones that were actually used with BOL. The B stations didn't really work as they wouldn't allow access to the cooling bottles for the AIM-9. There were however other launchers related to the TARPS. The ECA as an example and that could carry normal chaff cartridges (and probably flares but afaik didn't).

The flares for the BOL was a thing but I've never seen conclusive evidence of them being used with the F-14 and we have no data how they would compare to the normal full size flares either. The current implementation we have with the chaff from the BOL is due to those being smaller so that's why we launch them as we do to be equivalent to the chaff in DCS.

Additionally this earlier BOL implementation didn't have granular control over the launchers, it was basically just a single wire telling the BOL when to dispense.

 

 

[DSplayer]

2 hours ago, Naquaii said:

Not really sure how they used 3 BOLs or if that was an F-14D thing. The information we have points to 1A and 8A being the only ones that were actually used with BOL. The B stations didn't really work as they wouldn't allow access to the cooling bottles for the AIM-9. There were however other launchers related to the TARPS. The ECA as an example and that could carry normal chaff cartridges (and probably flares but afaik didn't).

The flares for the BOL was a thing but I've never seen conclusive evidence of them being used with the F-14 and we have no data how they would compare to the normal full size flares either. The current implementation we have with the chaff from the BOL is due to those being smaller so that's why we launch them as we do to be equivalent to the chaff in DCS.

Additionally this earlier BOL implementation didn't have granular control over the launchers, it was basically just a single wire telling the BOL when to dispense.

I guess there are former Tomcat pilots and maintainers that seemingly agree that there were flares and chaff that could be deployed from the BOL/LAU-138 rails for the F-14 (Jungle from Episode 9 and of course Tung from Episode 23 of the F-14 Tomcast) who can help support the implementation of flares for our F-14. Tung even had a great story that accompanied his episode where he described how the BOL-IR packages would create streaks along the horizontal stabs after using them.

 

It does make sense that a single BOL chaff module is roughly 1/4 as effective as a ALE-39 chaff cartridge since its roughly 1/4 the volume of one. But is it historical that a single press of the chaff deploy switch on the ALE-39 deploy 4 BOL modules in order to compensate for the lower chaff count or is it a thing you guys did to make the LAU-138 chaff bundles actually effective? If it is just a DCS thing, I wouldn't mind the ability for a special menu and a mission editor option for the disabling the LAU-138 firing 4 charges at once and bring up the LAU-138 chaff deploy count to 160 instead of 40 (since it would deploy 1 from each side instead of 4 from each side) even if its less effective than the typical DCS chaff charge.
 

Here's some documents I was able to find relating to the MJU-52/B flare cartridge for the LAU-138 but it's highly possible that you guys have already found these documents:

https://www.jmu.edu/cisr/research/OIG/Iraq/highres/09-Pyrotechnic.pdf

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/ntsp/aecm-a_2001.pdf

• This one states that the MJU-52/B "which when expelled from the sealed container, performs similarly to the MJU-27A/B Decoy Flare [the flare cartridge used by the ALE-39] by generating heat through a pyrophoric process."
• "MJU-52/B utilizes the same flatpacks as the BOL chaff to facilitate operational use of the BOL dispenser. The difference between the RF and IR packages revolves around the different payload of the decoy devices"

https://www.chemring.com/~/media/Files/C/Chemring-V3/documents/countermeasures/l5a2-bol-ir-brochure.pdf

 

It seems like there might be more information from "F-14A/B/D A/G TACTICAL MANUAL, NWP 3-22.5-F14A/B/D, VOLUME III, NAVAIR 01-F14AAD-1T-2" but I've been unable to find the document online.

Edited July 20, 2022 by DSplayer

[FWind]

2 hours ago, DSplayer said:

I guess there are former Tomcat pilots and maintainers that seemingly agree that there were flares and chaff that could be deployed from the BOL/LAU-138 rails for the F-14 (Jungle from Episode 9 and of course Tung from Episode 23 of the F-14 Tomcast) who can help support the implementation of flares for our F-14. Tung even had a great story that accompanied his episode where he described how the BOL-IR packages would create streaks along the horizontal stabs after using them.

 

It does make sense that a single BOL chaff module is roughly 1/4 as effective as a ALE-39 chaff cartridge since its roughly 1/4 the volume of one. But is it historical that a single press of the chaff deploy switch on the ALE-39 deploy 4 BOL modules in order to compensate for the lower chaff count or is it a thing you guys did to make the LAU-138 chaff bundles actually effective? If it is just a DCS thing, I wouldn't mind the ability for a special menu and a mission editor option for the disabling the LAU-138 firing 4 charges at once and bring up the LAU-138 chaff deploy count to 160 instead of 40 (since it would deploy 1 from each side instead of 4 from each side) even if its less effective than the typical DCS chaff charge.
 

Here's some documents I was able to find relating to the MJU-52/B flare cartridge for the LAU-138 but it's highly possible that you guys have already found these documents:

https://www.jmu.edu/cisr/research/OIG/Iraq/highres/09-Pyrotechnic.pdf

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/navy/ntsp/aecm-a_2001.pdf

• This one states that the MJU-52/B "which when expelled from the sealed container, performs similarly to the MJU-27A/B Decoy Flare [the flare cartridge used by the ALE-39] by generating heat through a pyrophoric process."
• "MJU-52/B utilizes the same flatpacks as the BOL chaff to facilitate operational use of the BOL dispenser. The difference between the RF and IR packages revolves around the different payload of the decoy devices"

https://www.chemring.com/~/media/Files/C/Chemring-V3/documents/countermeasures/l5a2-bol-ir-brochure.pdf

 

It seems like there might be more information from "F-14A/B/D A/G TACTICAL MANUAL, NWP 3-22.5-F14A/B/D, VOLUME III, NAVAIR 01-F14AAD-1T-2" but I've been unable to find the document online.

 

Bol-IR in the video.

https://youtu.be/D9WJ4rJmtOg

 

https://mega.nz/folder/WR9hwQoK#NXGsaNB-30aOO8Ki_KS0tA/folder/HY9VGTSa

Edited July 20, 2022 by FWind

[DSplayer]

13 minutes ago, FWind said:

Bol-IR in the video.

https://youtu.be/D9WJ4rJmtOg

15:47 is when you can really see an obvious use of the BOL-IRs with 2 distinct flare deployments from the wings btw.

[Naquaii]

The reason it's four cartridges is that that equates nicely to two DCS chaff, we don't have a way to make a chaff that's 1/4th as effective as a normal one. Each discharge of chaff on our BOLs release one DCS chaff on each side. We can't really change it to only release one "BOL charge" as that would effectively be cheating as each one would be as effective as what we have now.

As for the flares the problem is two-fold, we don't know if they were used with the earlier implementation and two, we don't know how effective they were.

[Naquaii]

Just saw evidence for them being used with the ALE-39 so that's something.

Problem is that we still don't really have a way to represent them in DCS as they don't look like normal flares and we alse don't really have a good comparison to normal flares as to effectiveness.

[DSplayer]

5 hours ago, Naquaii said:

The reason it's four cartridges is that that equates nicely to two DCS chaff, we don't have a way to make a chaff that's 1/4th as effective as a normal one. Each discharge of chaff on our BOLs release one DCS chaff on each side. We can't really change it to only release one "BOL charge" as that would effectively be cheating as each one would be as effective as what we have now.

As for the flares the problem is two-fold, we don't know if they were used with the earlier implementation and two, we don't know how effective they were.

I guess it’s more of a DCS limitation thing where chaff isn’t modeled in such a detailed manner where you can change variables on effectiveness or how big the charge is. 
 

5 hours ago, Naquaii said:

Just saw evidence for them being used with the ALE-39 so that's something.

Problem is that we still don't really have a way to represent them in DCS as they don't look like normal flares and we alse don't really have a good comparison to normal flares as to effectiveness.

Yeah it does seem like the BOL-IR system would be a new type of flare countermeasure in DCS that act and perform a lot differently than our normal flares. I do think a solution to this conundrum of BOL-IR implementation can definitely help out with the possible implementation of SDS on an RAF Eurofighter later on (if you guys plan on doing it) which appear to use a system based upon BOL.

 

Video of BOL-IR being used at night in Iraq (not NVG footage):

 

[RustBelt]

17 hours ago, Naquaii said:

Not really sure how they used 3 BOLs or if that was an F-14D thing. The information we have points to 1A and 8A being the only ones that were actually used with BOL. The B stations didn't really work as they wouldn't allow access to the cooling bottles for the AIM-9. There were however other launchers related to the TARPS. The ECA as an example and that could carry normal chaff cartridges (and probably flares but afaik didn't).

The flares for the BOL was a thing but I've never seen conclusive evidence of them being used with the F-14 and we have no data how they would compare to the normal full size flares either. The current implementation we have with the chaff from the BOL is due to those being smaller so that's why we launch them as we do to be equivalent to the chaff in DCS.

Additionally this earlier BOL implementation didn't have granular control over the launchers, it was basically just a single wire telling the BOL when to dispense.

 

 

I think the implication may have been they were ONLY running the BOL rail and not bothering with a Sidewinder on the B station not holding the Targeting Pod. 

May be a D thing due to the buss architecture allowing them to actually address the rail. Unlike our cats that are mostly direct wired for each fitting.

[DSplayer]

2 hours ago, RustBelt said:

I think the implication may have been they were ONLY running the BOL rail and not bothering with a Sidewinder on the B station not holding the Targeting Pod. 

May be a D thing due to the buss architecture allowing them to actually address the rail. Unlike our cats that are mostly direct wired for each fitting.

Yeah it seems like you could mount the LAU-138s on station 1B and 8B but you couldn't access the coolant bottle which would make it useless when trying to carry an AIM-9 but could be helpful when you just want the additional countermeasures.

 

A forum post from a modelling forum (could be hearsay without photographic evidence):

Spoiler

 

Edited July 21, 2022 by DSplayer

[RustBelt]

I think operating in a country with basically no air force, but a bumper crop of MANPADS I’d probably feel better with more flares than worry about having another sidewinder to drag back home.

[DSplayer]

Just going to tack onto this thread since I just remembered that the F-18 and F-16 in mid-2021 had an update where they got a new flare type and by extension, the F-18 received more flares that can be used. This new type of flares used on both aircraft is slightly less effective compared to the older style of flares found on other jets (JF-17, A-10s, FC3 Aircraft, etc.). If ED were to do this for chaff to simulate the basically a 1/4 charge that BOL chaff has along with implementing a BOL-IR style of flares, it would be pretty cool and could allow for a better LAU-138 implementation in DCS.

[Spurts]

the modeling problem is that this is LO:MAC 5.0 so we are dealing with a base code from 2000

[Wizard_03]

On 7/20/2022 at 3:08 AM, Naquaii said:

Not really sure how they used 3 BOLs or if that was an F-14D thing. The information we have points to 1A and 8A being the only ones that were actually used with BOL. The B stations didn't really work as they wouldn't allow access to the cooling bottles for the AIM-9. There were however other launchers related to the TARPS. The ECA as an example and that could carry normal chaff cartridges (and probably flares but afaik didn't).

The flares for the BOL was a thing but I've never seen conclusive evidence of them being used with the F-14 and we have no data how they would compare to the normal full size flares either. The current implementation we have with the chaff from the BOL is due to those being smaller so that's why we launch them as we do to be equivalent to the chaff in DCS.

Additionally this earlier BOL implementation didn't have granular control over the launchers, it was basically just a single wire telling the BOL when to dispense.

 

 

When y'all get around to modeling TARPS pod will/can we get the ECA for empty phoenix stations as well? 

[DSplayer]

Going to slightly necroing this thread by stating that within both the F-14 NTRP 3-22.4-F14A/B/D Store Limitations (Appendix A) and the F-14A/B/D A/G TACTICAL MANUAL NWP 3-22.5-F14A/B/D VOLUME III NAVAIR 01-F14AAD-1T-2, they mention the LAU-138 can be mounted on pylons 1A, 1B, 8A and 8B for ALE-39 equipped aircraft.

[Naquaii]

7 hours ago, DSplayer said:

Going to slightly necroing this thread by stating that within both the F-14 NTRP 3-22.4-F14A/B/D Store Limitations (Appendix A) and the F-14A/B/D A/G TACTICAL MANUAL NWP 3-22.5-F14A/B/D VOLUME III NAVAIR 01-F14AAD-1T-2, they mention the LAU-138 can be mounted on pylons 1A, 1B, 8A and 8B for ALE-39 equipped aircraft.

Yes, physically they can be as they fit all stations that can carry LAU-7. They weren't used however on the B-stations as you couldn't access the cooling for the AIM-9 while mounted there. Unless you removed the LAU-138 between each flight. Our SMEs confirm this.

[RustBelt]

Push comes to shove though, you COULD use them though? Or were they only wired for the A-stations? 
 

With DCS we aren’t just running scenarios that DID happen. If someone planned to do something crazy, more flares is more, and if the system could do it, they should be able to do it even if it was inconvenient for maintenance.

Because frankly, they’re invisible, and nobody cares what they think with their magic pixie repair and rearm technology in DCS.

[Naquaii]

4 minutes ago, RustBelt said:

Push comes to shove though, you COULD use them though? Or were they only wired for the A-stations? 
 

With DCS we aren’t just running scenarios that DID happen. If someone planned to do something crazy, more flares is more, and if the system could do it, they should be able to do it even if it was inconvenient for maintenance.

Because frankly, they’re invisible, and nobody cares what they think with their magic pixie repair and rearm technology in DCS.

Afaik they weren't wired due to this.

[RustBelt]

I figured, because unlike the D, the A and B wern't databuss platforms. You had to physically run individual wires between parts when anything was added.

[DSplayer]

I guess they can be physically mounted and if they were wired (which probably varied from squadron to squadron and aircraft to aircraft), you could use the pylon for extra countermeasures and in emergency circumstances, AIM-9s because of the ease of access for the coolant bottle.

EDIT: I just reread the F-14A/B/D A/G TACTICAL MANUAL NWP 3-22.5-F14A/B/D VOLUME III NAVAIR 01-F14AAD-1T-2 and it does say that carrying AIM-9s is not authorized on LAU-138s mounted on 1B and 8B. 

Edited September 8, 2022 by DSplayer

[DSplayer]

I accidentally stumbled upon this video while it was in my YT recommended page. It shows Naval Air Station Wildwood Aviation Museum's F-14B (non-upgrade model) with LAU-138s on the B stations, something that I've been trying to look for in historical fleet photos for months. Considering both pilots and the tactical manuals describe loadouts where the LAU-138 was mounted on the B stations, I think this at least a semi-valid loadout (excluding the missiles and most likely depending on squadron since some squadrons might've not bothered wiring the B stations for LAU-138 usage) even though its a museum aircraft. The only problem I see is that this example has the front section of the B station sidewinder adapter fairing missing on both sides.

Spoiler

 

 

Also watching back on episode 8 of the Tomcast, they described a mix LAU-138 loadout (having chaff on one side and flare on the other) but I assume this an ALE-47 only thing and not a thing achievable on the simplicity of the LAU-138 integration with the ALE-39.

Timestamped:

 

Edit: I found another video (which is a lot worse in video quality) that might show an operational Tomcat with a LAU-138 rail on the 1B station. Notice how the object on the 1B region is as long as an AIM-9 (slightly forward of 1A's AIM-9 due to perspective) which fits the bill for the 138 since the rail is longer than the LAU-7 and roughly the length of an AIM-9, narrower than the AIM-9 that is 1A, and doesn't look like a Sparrow or a non-LAU-138 pylon.

Edit 2: It appears to be from VF-2's last cruise in 2002-2003.
 

Spoiler

Timestamped: 

 

Edited December 4, 2022 by DSplayer

[The_Tau]

1 hour ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

The 138 isn't exactly correct for our era Tomcats in DCS. If you look at cruise photos from 90-91 of the VF-74 and 113 B's they all have LAU7 on 1A and 8A. And if anything had the model been made with this in mind we would have options between the 7 and 138 in the loadout menu.

technically we can chose in Mission Editor if F14 uses 138 with chaff or not

[Naquaii]

26 minutes ago, Бойовий Сокіл said:

Sure, but I mean purely visual as the pylon/rail is different.

Afaik the intention has always been to have both a LAU-138 and a LAU-7 visually as well. But not sure as to when it will happen exactly.

[F-14 Loosh]

So, to be better informed, one must understand how the LAU-138A/A cooled AIM-19L and AIM-9M.  The physical conversion of LAU-7s to LAU-138s included the remove of the normal spun fiber liquid nitrogen bottles from the rear of the missile launcher.  A smaller bottle was provided at the very front of the LAU-138A/As.  Look at photos and see the nitrogen bottle at the front of the launcher.  Easy to remove and replace regardless of particular weapon station.  Nitrogen ran through a capillary into the missile to the seeker to supercool the IR sensor to make it very sensitive to any heat source.