If an elite DCS:BS player takes the real KA-50...

[Rotorhead11]

As a real world helicopter pilot I'm pretty certain that someone who flys BS would NOT be able to fly the real thing. I've been flying for 15 years and I have NEVER met anyone who can hover a helicoper first time out, EVER.

 

The reason is that there is a delay between input and action, but by the time it starts to move the controls already need to be in another position. It's a very un-natural thing at first and needs to be learned.

 

It takes a few hours but its not that hard a skill to aquire.

 

However I do find the 'feel' of flying BS very realistic, it does feel very right to me. :joystick:

[Vortex]

Exactly, BS is just like stepping into a new Heli type. Everything feels very familiar, you just need to readjust your timing, like stepping into a Jetbox after flying an R22.

 

In this sim you cannot learn the timing necessary with control inputs. It's not that hard though really, and everyone gets the takeoff, hovering and landing within 5 hours. I got the hang of hovering in my first flight, then taxiing and landing in my second flight :smartass:

But so had my instructor, back in the days before flight sims had been invented:book:

Edited December 29, 2008 by Vortex

[Debio]

A good analogy would be driving a real car vs. driving a car simulation. It might be just me but for me it's easier to drive a real car than a car simulation. You just don't have all the senses to help you in a simulation. However' date=' I'm not saying that if you can drive a car in a simulation, that you can drive in real life (or deserve a drivers license - lol). But if someone were to have the same amount of stick time in a real BS as they did on the DCS:BS, I would say it would end up easier flying the real thing.[/quote']

 

being the spirited driver of a true sports car (one that can compete on the track) and a fan of racing sims, i would only modify the statement to state that it is easier to feel what the real car is doing and stay ahead of it. driving a real car at high speed through twisties is much harder in real life than in a race sim. not to mention bike sims.

 

cheers...

[ArchAngel]

An old army cadence "I wanna be a ground bourne Ranger, because heights present much danger!"

 

Sitting at home in pajammys in a nice comfy chair and flying BS is good enough. Flying for real? Nooooo way!

Edited December 29, 2008 by ArchAngel

[Frederf]

The only sim vs real life I have is C172 time. I know a lot of pilots will try to say that a sim is no where near the real thing "A sim pilot would crash and die" and I call BS on it.

 

I think if everything went right, the sim pilot could run around a C172 on the pattern pretty fine, depending on the kind of sim pilot. In the flying world there is the underlying knowledge and then there's the "feel of the thing." A PC sim and to a lesser extent a good FAA simulator don't always give you the feel but honestly that's the easiest part of flying. The underlying fundementals are a big big part of being a good pilot.

 

Also radios! I swear 40% of the challenge of flying for me is the busy KSFO area radio traffic.

[Zorrin]

There is no way that a sim-only pilot could fly the Shark. It's far too complex...

About 6 years ago an 18-year old lad walked into the flying school I was running and wanted to know the costs and what was involved in getting a JAR PPL(A).

 

So diligently I explain the processes and the costs...

 

He said he wasn't worried because he played a lot of Flight Sim.

 

"I could easily take one of those little planes and fly a circuit..." as he pointed at the proverbial spam can that is the Cessna 152.

 

So, I give him the keys and tell him to get her started... Funny thing, there wasn't a Ctrl E and he had no idea about needing to prime a cold engine.

 

Now of course, as a sim pilot you dream that you have the skills to do the real thing. But in reality, unless you already have some significant flight experience you are going to become unstuck very very quickly.

 

In a Level D full motion simulator - the ones that cost millions - I can handle a engine failure on take-off in a Gulfstream GIV-SP. Does this lead to me believe I can do it in a real GIV-SP with a staggering 1 hour on multi engined jets? Of course not.

 

Anyone that thinks they can do "it" because they've learnt on Flight Sim is talking complete crap.

 

I have maybe 10 hours TT on Rotary Wing flight and I know for a fact I'd kill myself if I got let loose in the Shark no matter how well I can fly it in BS I wouldn't even be tempted to try... Not that that temptation would ever be realised of course...

[the_pantman]

"In a Level D full motion simulator - the ones that cost millions - I can handle a engine failure on take-off in a Gulfstream GIV-SP. Does this lead to me believe I can do it in a real GIV-SP with a staggering 1 hour on multi engined jets? Of course not."

 

I hope that if you can handle an engine failure in a level d sim, then you could in real life, cos thats the only time real pilots get to try those kind of emergencys, so I can only assume that they couldn't handle a real engine failure either? Thats quite a worrying thought!

 

I hope that the only significant difference between a level d sim and real life is that in real life you would be crapping your pants... :)

[Dropbear]

Zorrin,

 

What you say is true, but on the flip side, I went flying in a cessna with an instructor, after having spent YEARS flying the thing in a Sim, and he was blown away by how comfortable and at ease I was on the first flight. I was familiar with the cockpit, knew where the instruments were and basically wasnt tense and frightened like most new students. Sim experience does really help and would cut substantial time off getting a PPL.

[Frederf]

Zorrin, I call BS on your argument. Yeah a "Ctrl-E" FSX pilot is not going to be able to start and fly a real C-172N like a licensed pilot, but don't unfairly categorize all sim pilots as being shortcut-startup, no-nothings. There are plenty of sim pilots that know more than real civil GA pilots about their aircraft systems.

 

Microsoft Flightsim is as real as you make it.

[d0ppler]

I landed the plane all by myself after my very first introduction flight. Never been able to do that if it hadn't been for MS Flightsim.

 

(the landing wasn't very smooth though) :P

[Tango]

I agree with Frederf. Whilst your comments (Zorrin) may have some merit with some pilots, not everyone is poorly self-taught. Myself, I've had the close guidance of a RW commercial pilot (airlines) and long-time flight instructor (everything from K-13 gliders to Cessnas of all types, to Airbus A330s) over many years, and he's convinced I could handle a big jet or a light piston. I've also been taught proper procedures, and how to fly IFR properly, too (all sim-based). He's pretty sure I could sit a real IFR flight test tomorrow and pass.

 

I hate "blowing my own trumpet", but again, I can't sit idly by whilst wild generalizations are made that are inaccurate.

 

The only reason I don't go and get my ticket is purely medical. That said, I have and do fly for real.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Tango

[tn_prvteye]

As a real world helicopter pilot I'm pretty certain that someone who flys BS would NOT be able to fly the real thing. I've been flying for 15 years and I have NEVER met anyone who can hover a helicoper first time out, EVER.

 

The reason is that there is a delay between input and action, but by the time it starts to move the controls already need to be in another position. It's a very un-natural thing at first and needs to be learned.

 

It takes a few hours but its not that hard a skill to aquire.

 

However I do find the 'feel' of flying BS very realistic, it does feel very right to me. :joystick:

 

Well I was hovering after about a 1/2 hour of instruction. Picking up and putting down were another matter entirely! :D My instructor had me hover-taxi back to the tarmac on my second flight (I had to weave in between parked helicopters..I was VERY scared). I almost killed us putting down, though...dropped the collective too fast and he grabbed it from me at screamed "NO". I LOVED hovering...I'm not bragging here, I just took to it fairly quickly. Unfortunately that was about the only thing I took to! (I left flight school after only 10 hours due to family reasons).

 

This was in a Schweizer BTW.

[Vortex]

The only sim vs real life I have is C172 time. I know a lot of pilots will try to say that a sim is no where near the real thing "A sim pilot would crash and die" and I call BS on it.

 

I think if everything went right, the sim pilot could run around a C172 on the pattern pretty fine, depending on the kind of sim pilot. In the flying world there is the underlying knowledge and then there's the "feel of the thing." A PC sim and to a lesser extent a good FAA simulator don't always give you the feel but honestly that's the easiest part of flying. The underlying fundementals are a big big part of being a good pilot.

 

Also radios! I swear 40% of the challenge of flying for me is the busy KSFO area radio traffic.

 

We are not talking about cessna 172 here. A helicopter will kill you if you simply let it do what it wants, unlike a 172 that will happily keep flying.

[Zorrin]

"In a Level D full motion simulator - the ones that cost millions - I can handle a engine failure on take-off in a Gulfstream GIV-SP. Does this lead to me believe I can do it in a real GIV-SP with a staggering 1 hour on multi engined jets? Of course not."

 

I hope that if you can handle an engine failure in a level d sim, then you could in real life, cos thats the only time real pilots get to try those kind of emergencys, so I can only assume that they couldn't handle a real engine failure either? Thats quite a worrying thought!

 

I hope that the only significant difference between a level d sim and real life is that in real life you would be crapping your pants... :)

 

Yes but before anyone gets let loose on something like a GIV-SP they need to have done some serious training. I had never touched anything of that size until I spent an hour in that simulator. Should have clarified that a bit better.... Used that as an example of what can be done in a sim from knowing the theory.

 

 

 

Zorrin,

 

What you say is true, but on the flip side, I went flying in a cessna with an instructor, after having spent YEARS flying the thing in a Sim, and he was blown away by how comfortable and at ease I was on the first flight. I was familiar with the cockpit, knew where the instruments were and basically wasnt tense and frightened like most new students. Sim experience does really help and would cut substantial time off getting a PPL.

 

Yes of course, half the battle when you learn to fly is knowing where things are. But having had that experience of the real thing, can you honestly say that you would have coped with no help from anyone else whatsoever? Would you be here now reading this post or would you have become another statistic? Physically flying an aeroplane or a helicopter is not the hard part. It's everything that goes with it... Notably 'command decision'. You cannot pull over and take a few moments to catch your breath and think what's next. Even in a 152 you are still covering a mile and a half every minute.

 

For a JAR PPL minimum time is 45 hours, I don't see using something like FS X actually being able to help with that level of flying. Now when it comes to IFR flying and say IMC ratings or IRs... Well that's a different kettle of fish. By the very nature of instrument flight the focus is now on having your head in the cockpit and ignoring what's going on outside of you. It can help show you the way, and I won't disagree that once you are beyond the level of basic PPL training it can indeed help keep you fresh.

 

It does not however make up for actual time at the controls to experience the way the engine always sounds like it is running rough when you are crossing large stretches of water in a SEP... Or the spatial disorientation because you "peeked" out the window while in cloud... Oh look real ice affecting my aerodynamics!

 

 

 

Zorrin, I call BS on your argument. Yeah a "Ctrl-E" FSX pilot is not going to be able to start and fly a real C-172N like a licensed pilot, but don't unfairly categorize all sim pilots as being shortcut-startup, no-nothings. There are plenty of sim pilots that know more than real civil GA pilots about their aircraft systems.

 

Microsoft Flightsim is as real as you make it.

 

I'm not calling all sim pilots that at all. I merely used an actual example of the contempt that it can breed.

 

Does FSX actually make your bum take a bite out of the seat when at 300ft after take-off the engine of your 172 starts coughing and spluttering, and suddenly you are no longer climbing? Of course not, you're sat in the computer chair, y'know that nice comfy leather one...

 

There is no subsitute for the real thing at that level. As mentioned earlier, yes once you are into seriously expensive and complex aircraft types it is ludicrous to do anything other than use a simulator. But being trained on a simulator after you have amassed hundreds or thousands of hours of actual flight time, is a whole lot easier than doing it the other way round.

 

I agree with Frederf. Whilst your comments (Zorrin) may have some merit with some pilots, not everyone is poorly self-taught. Myself, I've had the close guidance of a RW commercial pilot (airlines) and long-time flight instructor (everything from K-13 gliders to Cessnas of all types, to Airbus A330s) over many years, and he's convinced I could handle a big jet or a light piston. I've also been taught proper procedures, and how to fly IFR properly, too (all sim-based). He's pretty sure I could sit a real IFR flight test tomorrow and pass.

 

I hate "blowing my own trumpet", but again, I can't sit idly by whilst wild generalizations are made that are inaccurate.

 

The only reason I don't go and get my ticket is purely medical. That said, I have and do fly for real.

 

Best regards,

Tango.

 

Has that guidance been with an instructor sat next to you or has that been online? If you can get that sort of advice then you surely have a headstart over someone who has not. But that fact remains, you can be the world's most competent Flightsim pilot when everything is working.

 

What about when something breaks? What if you lose the engine on your SEP? Sure on FS you can say, well I'm sure I'd have survived I didn't hit that hedge too hard. Not like this field was freshly ploughed or anything...

 

What about the real intricacies of the environment. Ever been caught out by fog? What about losing an alternator at night knowing you may or may not have to fly your apporach using only the maglite wedged under your headset ruining your night vision yet do you really want to fly this approach without seeing any of your instruments?

 

How has your actual flight experience compared to that of Flightsim? Not really the same is it? What about when you make a mistake... There are no consequences when you're being a PC Pilot. But when there's that scrap of aluminium or composite or fabric or whatever... Separating you from the Earth you snap back into your training that has been drilled into you endlessly. How often on Flightsim have you practiced EFATO [Engine Failure After Take Off] or even just an engine failure... How often have you injured yourself?

 

You cannot replace the fact that while you are being a sim pilot, no matter what calibre or level of fidelity you are flying at, there are no consequences to mistakes.

 

That is the key difference, when suddenly as Pilot In Command you are responsible for the lives of everyone on board, whether you are two-up or on a fully loaded A380. It's your fault if it all goes to sh*t...

[Tango]

Has that guidance been with an instructor sat next to you or has that been online?

Sat next to me, giving me the equivalent of RW training (bonus: for free).

 

What about when something breaks? What if you lose the engine on your SEP?

A great question. As per the real thing: look for a suitable landing field and hang on (observing best glide)...

 

Sure on FS you can say, well I'm sure I'd have survived I didn't hit that hedge too hard. Not like this field was freshly ploughed or anything...

Well, I've been in a RL car crash. Is that close enough for knowing what it's like to hit terra firma?

 

What about losing an alternator at night knowing you may or may not have to fly your apporach using only the maglite wedged under your headset ruining your night vision yet do you really want to fly this approach without seeing any of your instruments?

This part I accept, but then again in RL, you deal with what you've got. If it isn't your day, you're screwed anyway. The best you can do is keep a level head and fly the aircraft first.

 

How has your actual flight experience compared to that of Flightsim?

Actually, I found FS took away the confusion and over-whelmed factor; it gave me familiarity with the instruments which made getting on and flying the aircraft much easier as I've already conquered the instrument scan, etc.. Flying the real thing I find easier as I can freely look around and *feel* what the aircraft and controls are doing. Yes, there was a brief period of getting used to it, but then that's the same with anything you encounter the first time. Even a 10,000 hour pilot still has to get used to a new aircraft.

 

What about when you make a mistake... There are no consequences when you're being a PC Pilot.

Agreed, but I didn't find this much different to driving a car. The possibility of a big screw-up is there, but again, keeping a level head helps a lot.

 

How often on Flightsim have you practiced EFATO [Engine Failure After Take Off] or even just an engine failure...

Quite often actually. My only problem with FS is the accuracy of the flight model in this regard. I'd have to do this in a sim sometime. Not had the pleasure of flying a real twin yet.

 

How often have you injured yourself?

Virtual and real: never (thankfully).

 

You cannot replace the fact that while you are being a sim pilot, no matter what calibre or level of fidelity you are flying at, there are no consequences to mistakes.

 

That is the key difference, when suddenly as Pilot In Command you are responsible for the lives of everyone on board, whether you are two-up or on a fully loaded A380. It's your fault if it all goes to sh*t...

I agree totally, but then if you fly to the best of your ability and the S still HTF, then at least you tried, and no-one can criticize you for that.

 

"Aviate. Navigate. Communicate". Too many people forget to do point #1. ;)

 

Best regards,

Tango.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Tango

[Debio]

um. to the OP's original question, i would say 'possibly'.

 

there has been quite a bit of input from RW piolts with sim experience. i wonder how many ppl fly BS ( or any other sim) with failures turned on. Zorrin seems to be someone up to that challenge. my RW-vs-sim experience has been only with bikes and cars. no, sims (at best) can only come close to preparing you for RW. even still, since there is the heavy penalty of crashing into the ground, flying is much less forgiving of gross miscalculations.

 

my RW friend would beat the pants off me in racing sims time and again. we went out to the twisties for a romp and he threw his ride down the road. go figure. did sim expertise make him a better driver? apparently not. but i am certain there are a good number of people who have a natural knack for flying that would surprise many experienced pilots.

 

just saying...

[Tango]

I bow to your superior knowledge on the rotary subject, Brad. I'm sure as hell not suggesting that I could jump in and fly a Ka-50 off the bat having flown a simulation of it, and expect to survive. Fixed wing is one thing, but I appreciate rotary wing is quite another.

 

I was a passenger a couple of times in the back of Sikorskies. They definitely move differently.

 

but i am certain there are a good number of people who have a natural knack for flying that would surprise many experienced pilots.

I'd agree with that. A helo pilot friend said a while ago that some people pick up flying helis quite quickly, whilst others will never fly one as long as they're alive. I've never had the chance to find out which I am... I can fly RC helis pretty well though, so maybe I might be able to manage it? I know my sim flying would pick up if I had proper (anti-?)torque pedals (does "anti-" apply to the Ka-50 or are they just torque pedals?).

 

Best regards,

Tango.

Edited December 30, 2008 by Tango

[Debio]

(does "anti-" apply to the Ka-50 or are they just torque pedals?)...

 

that is a darned good question. hope someone can answer...

[Rotorhead11]

I bow to your superior knowledge on the rotary subject, Brad. I'm sure as hell not suggesting that I could jump in and fly a Ka-50 off the bat having flown a simulation of it, and expect to survive. Fixed wing is one thing, but I appreciate rotary wing is quite another.

 

I was a passenger a couple of times in the back of Sikorskies. They definitely move differently.

 

I'd agree with that. A helo pilot friend said a while ago that some people pick up flying helis quite quickly, whilst others will never fly one as long as they're alive. I've never had the chance to find out which I am... I can fly RC helis pretty well though, so maybe I might be able to manage it? I know my sim flying would pick up if I had proper (anti-?)torque pedals (does "anti-" apply to the Ka-50 or are they just torque pedals?).

 

Best regards,

Tango.

 

Interesting point, my brother has (had) an RC helicopter which I managed to cream into the side of the house after about 5 seconds. I can fly the real thing but RC was beyond me :cry:

[Shrubbo]

Thats mainly because it is insanely maneuverable to the point of virtually instantaneous movement to the control inputs, has stuff all inertia, you have no sensory feed back, weird ass wtf controls and half the time the controls have to be used backwards :)

 

I have been told a couple of times around the traps that it is in fact harder to fly an rc helicopter then it is a real one. While I actualy susspect this is true (I did learn to fly one of the little buggers, lost interest once I could hover and move it around tho hahah) I have zero time in a real helicopter.

[Cougar12dk]

As a real world helicopter pilot I'm pretty certain that someone who flys BS would NOT be able to fly the real thing. I've been flying for 15 years and I have NEVER met anyone who can hover a helicoper first time out, EVER.

 

The reason is that there is a delay between input and action, but by the time it starts to move the controls already need to be in another position. It's a very un-natural thing at first and needs to be learned.

 

It takes a few hours but its not that hard a skill to aquire.

 

However I do find the 'feel' of flying BS very realistic, it does feel very right to me. :joystick:

 

I hovered the first time I flew one. It wasn't a perfect hover, mind you. But I held it within the practise circle, about 5 meters in diameter.

I soloed after 9 flying hours in the Schweizer 300CBi.

I had flown gliders prior to attending helicopter training though, so I had the rudder/tail rotor foot coordination pretty much down.

 

When we landed back at the school, my instructor told me had never seen anyone hover within the circle on their first try before.

[Teapot]

Well, I can recount a RL experience I had recently while flying as a passenger in a 747 on - route from Singapore to Milan ... @ approx 1900 hours the flight was settling in nicely, I'd just stretched out in my luxurious buisness class seat sipping a 100 y.o. scotch when an obviously distressed voluptuous blonde 30 something stewardess made a dramatic entrance and cried in a stressed but melodious voice ... "can anyone here fly a plane?" ... I shot a glance at a guy across the aisle whom I'd earlier seen reading a "Flight Sim X" manual and he tentatively put up his hand ... DOH! I thought ... Microsoft Flightsim doesn't come any-where near the fidelity required to count as real flight experience ... X-Plane on the other hand is a different matter, so I confidently put my arm around the stewardess and grunted into her shell like ear (she had the scent of lavender) while fixing her with my steely grey eyes (after moving away from her shell like ears .. of course!) ..."sweetheart" I said trying to sound like Bogart without spitting over her make-up ... "sweetheart, I'm an X-Plane virtual pilot and I can fly a 747 down to finals on Kai Tak with my eyes closed, bra straps wrapped around my head sipping a dry-martini, what's your problem"

"Oh sir .." she cooed, laying her perfumed halo of golden hair upon my manly chest ... "you must save us ... the pilot has had a heart attack and is dead".

I strode into the cockpit and sure enough ... there was the pilot with a huge grin on his face and a glazed look on his face .. poor sod, at least he went happy, I thought.

Gingerely, I prized open the port window and pushed him out so that I could take over the controls; the damsel of a stewardess crushed her foreward portions on to my (manly) shoulders as I took stock of the situation ...

 

It's all true I say, every word happened exactly as I've said ...

 

Did I tell you of the time I had to do a wing walk from a crop duster into the pilot's seat of a Tornado @ angels 15? The pilot had had a heart attack there as well and the WO (just happened to be a beautiful busty brunette) couldn't thank me enough for that one! Luckily for me that I had stick time in DI's Tornado ... I had to apologise to the brunette because as I explained I was a little rusty and DCS hadn't made a Tornado yet ... nevertheless, we were able to complete the mission (even managed to loft some bombs onto a SAM site before heading home for tea!)

 

The short answer is yes ... with the right sim under my belt and enough motivation, I can fly any damn thing :D.

 

Where's my Bacardi?

Edited December 30, 2008 by Teapot

[Rotorhead11]

I hovered the first time I flew one. It wasn't a perfect hover, mind you. But I held it within the practise circle, about 5 meters in diameter.

I soloed after 9 flying hours in the Schweizer 300CBi.

I had flown gliders prior to attending helicopter training though, so I had the rudder/tail rotor foot coordination pretty much down.

 

When we landed back at the school, my instructor told me had never seen anyone hover within the circle on their first try before.

 

That is impressive stuff, you should be rightly proud.

 

I should have been clearer though - nobody can hover first time out to a level that would facilitate a take off and landing. While taking nothing away from you, keeping it in a 5m circle wouldn't allow you to land safely. :thumbup:

[Teapot]

That is impressive stuff, you should be rightly proud. ... :thumbup:

 

All in a days work old chap! All in a days work! Nothing to it really ... happens all the time.

 

Cheers!

[d0ppler]

I've been flying RC helis for 20 years, and I've also heard this myth that it's harder to pilot a RC heli than a real one, which is not true at all.

a) You're standing safe on the ground

b) Your RC heli can withstand a ridiculous amount of G-forces without getting destroyed

c) You're standing safe on the ground

d) You're standing safe on the ground

 

;)

But when it comes to flying a "real" RC-heli, you can learn 99% of this in a RC-heli simulator like Reflex XTR or RealFlight