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Pricing - An opinion.


Rudel_chw
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1 hour ago, Insanatrix said:

it's just good business to listen to your customer base. 

  ''The customer is always right in matters of taste.'' In other matters, it's entirely possible for the customer to be an idiot that should be ignored or ejected from the premises.

Де вороги, знайдуться козаки їх перемогти.

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Like @Rudel_chwrepeated, this thread was made as the discount did not exist (by mistake).

Talking about th value one has to consider the F1M:

"The project included a revised cockpit with colour LCDs and a Smart HUD from Sextant Avionique, a Sextant inertial navigation system with GPS interface; NATO-compatible Have Quick 2 secure communications; Mode 4 digital IFF; a defensive aids suite; and flight recorders.[85] The radar was upgraded to Cyrano IVM standard, adding sea search and air to ground ranging modes."

(from English Wikipedia)

An early F1CE, a modernised F1EE, the first supersonic trainer (as mentioned above) F1BE and a 1999-2001 F1M for 79,99$-20%-10% ED Miles = 57,60$ is not so overpriced to me that it gets me concerned.

(I've more concerns about the gas for my Ferrari which is the cost for the 450W of the next gen graphic cards.)

 


Edited by Tom Kazansky
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Price is good value in my opinion, for the work being done by the team, and the different variants planned. 

If you paid full price due to the discount not being applied contact your point of sale as soon as possible, they will help you. 

thank you

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3 hours ago, Tom Kazansky said:

An early F1CE, a modernised F1EE, the first supersonic trainer (as mentioned above) F1BE and a 1999-2001 F1M for 79,99$-20%-10% ED Miles = 57,60$ is not so overpriced to me that it gets me concerned.

This. I understand some compare it to the Mirage 2000C but that one is only 1 plane, not 4! Even if CE and EE are quite close to each other, don't tell me a fully modernized M with MFD and a twin-seat BE are "the same". Those are new cockpits, a lot of new systems.. All of that for the same or similar price as recent releases like AH-64 and Mi-24 which offer only a single aircraft type.

The quality of the F1 so far has really impressed me, top-notch modelling and a lot of details are included for immersion, you hear your pilot breathing, the structure flexing and creaking when you overstress the jet...

I get that everything is expensive right now and not everyone has a ton of money for their hobbies. But this is not on Aerges ; they have done a great job developing this jet, they have obviously spent an enormous amount of hours on it, and in my humble opinion the price is well deserved. For those with tight wallets, maybe wait for a sale in 6 months to a year...

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I'll have to pass until I have more funds freed up, or the price drops. Sorry, it now costs as much as a non-discounted Tomcat. This is a little steep. I could agree on a Tomcat-level base price, if a discount was applied on top it'd work for me, but not the way it's done. The way I see it, Tomcat also gets you four variants (A, B, early A, Iranian), all two-seaters, no MFDs but it comes with an AI, similarly immersive modeling, plus it's the Tomcat so it's kind of special. Mirage F1 is on par content-wise, but it's not the Tomcat. 

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10 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

I'll have to pass until I have more funds freed up, or the price drops. Sorry, it now costs as much as a non-discounted Tomcat. This is a little steep. I could agree on a Tomcat-level base price, if a discount was applied on top it'd work for me, but not the way it's done. The way I see it, Tomcat also gets you four variants (A, B, early A, Iranian), all two-seaters, no MFDs but it comes with an AI, similarly immersive modeling, plus it's the Tomcat so it's kind of special. Mirage F1 is on par content-wise, but it's not the Tomcat. 

Did you check the shop before posting something false?

Both have 79,99$ base price. Tomcat has no discount. F1 has -20% early access discount, bringing it to 63,99$.

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Just now, Qiou87 said:

Did you check the shop before posting something false?

No, because I don't buy there. I'm not getting stiffed by converting to USD every time I want to buy something. In my local currency, the Steam price of the Tomcat is 299.99 (no discount), Mirage F1 is 301.06 (with discount), with a base price of 376.33. That's what matters for me.

It is quite possible that it's on Steam's end, but either way, I'm getting a raw deal. Looking at SteamDB, I'm pretty sure a lot of international customers are in a similar boat (while Mexicans are undoubtedly jumping at the deal they're getting, since it turns out it's broken the other way around in some currencies).

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1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

No, because I don't buy there. I'm not getting stiffed by converting to USD every time I want to buy something. In my local currency, the Steam price of the Tomcat is 299.99 (no discount), Mirage F1 is 301.06 (with discount), with a base price of 376.33. That's what matters for me.

It is quite possible that it's on Steam's end, but either way, I'm getting a raw deal. Looking at SteamDB, I'm pretty sure a lot of international customers are in a similar boat (while Mexicans are undoubtedly jumping at the deal they're getting, since it turns out it's broken the other way around in some currencies).

Understood. Seems to be something weird on the Steam shop, as in EUR the Tomcat is at 74€ and the F1 at 78,69€ before rebate (62,95€ after rebate). So the Tomcat doesn't have the same base price on the Steam shop and official DCS shop.

I agree, you seem to be getting a very bad deal in your currency. However your original message did not mention Steam, or your local currency, so you can understand my confusion - by default I would assume that we speak about the official store and their official currency. 🙂

I am also not happy about the currency situation, used to be that I could get quite a decent discount by paying in USD with EUR, today the exchange rate is terrible.


Edited by Qiou87

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1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

No, because I don't buy there. I'm not getting stiffed by converting to USD every time I want to buy something. In my local currency, the Steam price of the Tomcat is 299.99 (no discount), Mirage F1 is 301.06 (with discount), with a base price of 376.33. That's what matters for me.

It is quite possible that it's on Steam's end, but either way, I'm getting a raw deal. Looking at SteamDB, I'm pretty sure a lot of international customers are in a similar boat (while Mexicans are undoubtedly jumping at the deal they're getting, since it turns out it's broken the other way around in some currencies).

My apologies. I wasn't aware that other regions haven't corrected their prices yet.

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23 hours ago, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

In my opinion DCS modules still wouldn't be overpriced if they were priced at € 150 each, but that's just me. Look at what you're getting for it, and the amount of hours of fun: DCS modules are still priced far better when you look at price per flight hour compared to any game out there (price per hour played) including single-player RPGs.

This is very bold statement that I do not agree with.  I have several games in my Steam library that I have over 700 hours in that I paid less than $20 CAD for ('Workers and Resources - Soviet republic' currently).  DCS is a niche, and is VERY expensive compared to other games on the market.  I have 10 modules and FC3, but I only buy them on sale (way back when I bought the Ka 50), which makes it a lot more palatable.  There's no way you can get 1000's of hours out of DCS unless you either play nothing else for several years, or literally spend all your free time playing games.  

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I think that this module is not less complex than other modules like the F/A-18 or the F-16, since there are 4 variants of this plane, including a functional double cockpit and a modernized version with HUD and glass cockpit, so it´s fair that it has the same price (other thing is if 80 bucks is cheap or expensive for a module. Its not cheap, IMO)... BUT... I think the double cockpit is not something that everybody needs/wants. I´m not planning in training other people or receiving training from others, so I would prefer the module were a bit cheaper (maybe like the Harrier or the Mirage 2000) without the functional double cockpit variant, and to have the option of buying it for a few more bucks if I were interested. 

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For me right now is a hard stop after the AH-64D. I promised that no Multicore / Vulkan will mean no more buy for me. So with 20 modules and a TON of money already spent on VR headset and HOTAS in this GPU crysis I have to spare for a new GPU. It's much more important than a new module.

If only we could get some info on DCS core progress then maybe I could revise my standpoint...

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Just shut up and pay this great third party's hard work & devotion.
I mean... Aerges emerged pretty silently... zero drama in their communication with the community... they came out as clean as one can get with this release.
Silent for some time, then few pics, few youtube vids... then a medium hype-up by known youtubers & the cool tease on facebook by daily screenshots before release... also, PDF manual upfront.
You get 3 years of pure love, passion & hard work... as you can read elsewhere it's airforce family legacy we are talking about here...
First reviews show excelent flight model and almost complete systems...
You don't buy the module... you reward the people who make your hobby exist...
Use your frikkin ED miles... :joystick: :thumbup:
 

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On 7/21/2022 at 5:44 PM, Raven (Elysian Angel) said:

In my opinion DCS modules still wouldn't be overpriced if they were priced at € 150 each, but that's just me. Look at what you're getting for it, and the amount of hours of fun: DCS modules are still priced far better when you look at price per flight hour compared to any game out there

uhh, civilian flight sims? 150e would be suicidal. even the hot start challenger 650, which many consider the most detailed sim aircraft ever made (far more detailed than any dcs module), costs $115. and that price was met with quite some backlash. dcs prices are slowly approaching the ceiling.


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9 hours ago, dorianR666 said:

uhh, civilian flight sims? 150e would be suicidal. even the hot start challenger 650, which many consider the most detailed sim aircraft ever made (far more detailed than any dcs module), costs $115. and that price was met with quite some backlash. dcs prices are slowly approaching the ceiling.

 

FSLabs A320 says “hi”. And that’s only one model with two engine options. A319 and A321 addons cost extra. 

Bought A320 in 2018 for around 150€, quite expensive, but overall think it was worth it.

PMDG stuff has also become expensive. Bought NGX for FSX for about 45€ back in the day, and when I  had to rebuy it for P3D the price was already around 90€. At this point I am afraid to check how much their 737 costs for MSFS. 

 

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1 hour ago, killkenny1 said:

Bought A320 in 2018 for around 150€, quite expensive, but overall think it was worth it.

it appears to be $150 on their website (though, temporarily, 1e equals $1 now). fslabs is well known as greedy (and to install malware into customers pcs and then threaten to sue them for finding out). but that product used to be top of the class. in msfs, its competition nowadays is the fenix a320 which is nearing fslabs level of detail and surpassing it in some ways - and costs $60.

dcs modules arent on the level of depth of neither to justify a 150e pricetag, was my point.

 

1 hour ago, killkenny1 said:

At this point I am afraid to check how much their 737 costs for MSFS. 

$70 on their website right now. not bad. msfs is a much bigger market so it probably allows for lower prices.


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1 hour ago, dorianR666 said:

dcs modules arent on the level of depth of neither to justify a 150e pricetag, was my point.

 

The issue is that it's not objective quality that determines price but perceived quality. Most people (I'd say vast majority of DCS players) simply do not know what level of fidelity DCS modules aim for, especially when compared to other, civil aviation focused products. Every developer wants to generate as much profit as possible and the pricing is chosen to reflect this.

 

So if there are enough people who think DCS modules are worth 150 or even 200 bucks and this reaches a critical mass, there's no incentive for developers to not increase their prices to this level. The other rule (albeit an anecdotal one) is that most niche games and free to play titles make the vast majority of revenue from enthusiasts (or whales) that buy most products anyway. Realistically speaking 150 would be extreme, but an increase to 100 EA and 120 full price for the upcoming highly coveted modules like the F-15E, F-4 and EF2000 is not an asinine theory in my opinion. And if people complain, trolls like Zhukov will come out of the woodwork to give you the daily dose of elitism and classism. 

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For every 1 person who thinks $150 is fair there's probably 100 who would say "screw it, not worth it". It's not about not being able to afford it either, It's about what I'm getting and perceived value. I also have to invest time into learning to actually be able to fly it. There's a time and a monetary cost investment. One of the reasons this is such a niche market is due to that. Customer perceived value is even more important, not less. for every 1 customer you lose it's the equivalent of 10-100 maybe even 1,000 from a AAA title for instance.

Using myself as an example, I have less and less time to devote to sitting reading a manual and trying to learn how to fly some of the modules. I've gotten older, real life and other hobbies are more or less equally important. It's not that I don't want to. It's not that I can't afford to drop $150. It's that I would never use it enough to justify purchasing it and the perceived value dropped because. I would be more apt to wait for a sale, but by the time it does go on sale and actually hit a price point where I might drop money on it, I don't even think about it really and I'm talking about as the price rises because it makes the sales seem less like a sale really and more dropping down to their original price point. I'm probably more casual than those who build sim pits and spend $1000's on it as a hobby. To those people $150 is nothing because you spent $1000's building a sim pit and the perceived value isn't more or less but the value they place on their money is more or less. It's the basic whale mentality. 

All I'm trying to say is that the attitude that you would pay anything to get your hands on it isn't shared by most. I'm sure the developers will do what they think is best for the company, but even they are not infallible. I don't think the prices are all that extreme right now anyways but they are slowly approaching it. 

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1 hour ago, Insanatrix said:

I'm sure the developers will do what they think is best for the company, but even they are not infallible.

 

I agree  ... and that is the very reason why I started this thread .. I couldn't believe that the Module would be released into EA without a discount. I would purchase it anyway, but I'd rather see it used by many players than only a few ... fortunately it was a quickly corrected mistake and now the Module has a reasonable 20% discount ... hopefully those few that purchased it at full price have gotten a partial refund.

 

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I'm still waiting for someone (@BIGNEWY, maybe someone from Aerges? Not sure who handles this kind of thing) to yell at Steam to fix their international pricing for the module. It is literally the only module with such a problem, the AH-64D was properly adjusted when I bought it, which was during preorder, not even EA.

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On 7/22/2022 at 5:19 AM, Dragon1-1 said:

I'll have to pass until I have more funds freed up, or the price drops. Sorry, it now costs as much as a non-discounted Tomcat. This is a little steep. I could agree on a Tomcat-level base price, if a discount was applied on top it'd work for me, but not the way it's done. The way I see it, Tomcat also gets you four variants (A, B, early A, Iranian), all two-seaters, no MFDs but it comes with an AI, similarly immersive modeling, plus it's the Tomcat so it's kind of special. Mirage F1 is on par content-wise, but it's not the Tomcat. 

 

The problem is that it isn't on par content-wise. 

On release, the F-14 promised two free campaigns, scenarios for every map, LANTIRN, Jester, and four airframes- including full FM adjustments for a different set of engines. 

It dropped with a minimum of five instant action missions on every map.  We're now at three official free campaigns for competition, because the South Atlantic mini-campaign was added on in a moment of inspiration.   Multi-crew out of the box.  Jester on release.  And even the M won't give remotely the depth required to make up the difference.  

The F1 is a nice and useful module in the scope of DCS and fills in necessary holes.  The promises made don't rise to the levels of the other $80+ tier modules, and don't match up to where those were on EA release.  If the F-14 is going to be the standard folks point to, it's got a lot of work to do beyond the terms that have thus far been set. 


Edited by lunaticfringe
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Well, Aerges didn't say anything about SP content, and for that price, I'd expect at least one, if not two full-length campaigns. What's in at release doesn't factor into it for me because the whole point of EA is they don't need to have everything done, but it'd be nice if there were plans, at least. HB has very good mission creators, Aerges is still unproven, though it's not like there's a shortage of experienced creators to partner with, RAZBAM-style. For me, campaigns are actually a huge part of deciding whether to buy a module or not, indeed, I wouldn't have gotten the MiG-19 if it wasn't for BD's campaign for it.

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