AAR issues.

[bond672]

Just to say, AAR is impossible in the Tomcat, I get close, then the tanker jerks his aircraft up and down in a random major causing me to miss the basket, then he decides to bank just as I get close. The tanker driver is a git

Seriously though, I am using curves of 15,I try to use small inputs, get close then I end up in a PIO. 

Is there any use of autopilot that can help? Been watching vids on YT, trying to put the basket through the window frame lights. 

Help! 

Simon. 

[Jayhawk1971]

I use zero curves, deadzone of 1 or 2 on all axis (with a Logitech G940, no extension). AAR in the Tomcat is not an issue for me, at all. Easiest of the bunch, IMO. For me, the Hornet's too sensitive pitch axis makes refueling harder (not impossible, just less fun). 

Disclaimer: switching to VR helped immensely. It turned AAR from a dreaded chore to something I actually quite enjoy now. 

Still, even in 2D it's not impossible, just a little bit harder.

Autopilot or other "shortcuts" will not help you.

If/once you are  able to fly a stable close formation with the tanker, ignoring other "input" once you are in formation (like airspeed, VVI), you'll find AAR not that hard. Find one or two distinct features on the tanker and try to make it/them "stick" to a point of reference on your aircraft (canopy frame, for example). If you can do that comfortably, apply the same principle to actual refueling. Every tanker in DCS has a certain frame of reference to help you line up with the basket. Also, if you switch to A2A HUD, use the right degree number next to the pitch ladder and overlay that with the refueling hose. That'll put you pretty much in the ballpark lineup-wise. 

Trimming helps a lot.

Other than that, keep practicing. Sooner or later it'll "click" for you.

Some people say not to focus on the basket, rather to keep it in your peripheral vision. Other's claim the opposite. Whatever you do, do not chase the basket. Take a "stab" at it (quite literally), if you miss, back off and try again. Once you're connected, don't get excited (which I found to be the hardest part  ) and stick to formation flying. 

 

 

Edited July 22, 2022 by Jayhawk1971

[WelshZeCorgi]

put the wings into bomb or manual mode, if trying to AAR with auto wingsweep, it will be difficult to maintain level flight at certain speed bands. Keeping the wing sweep in manual or bomb mode will prevent them from moving around and changing the flight characteristic. 

[bond672]

Thanks for the help guys, yeah, I normally have the wings in bomb mode, I just get frustrated when getting super close, I blink and I'm in an oscillation. 

I use VR, totally agree its a game changer. I will try your suggestions on curves. 

Simon. 

[Jayhawk1971]

It'll take a while to get used to zero curves on this module at first, but it will pay off in the long run. Just practice flying around in freeflight and get used to the very direct input. I've found that trying to keep the VVI needle centered is good practice.

The Tomcat handles like a warbird (think F-86), so it needs a light touch and lots of trimming. Literally two fingers on the stick (I mounted the stick center, and rest my right elbow on my lap while steering with two fingers and the thumb on the trim button). Admittedly, the force-feedback stick is helping a lot with the trimming.

vor 11 Minuten schrieb bond672:

I just get frustrated when getting super close, I blink and I'm in an oscillation. 

In that case, here's what I'd do: try to lineup as early as possible, and "stab forward" with the refueling probe. If you miss, back off a couple of feet and try again. If you see you're moving vertically on the basket, don't chase it.

Also, maybe something in this video might help:

 

[bond672]

Thanks bud, I will check out this video. 

Kind regards 

Simon. 

[bond672]

I followed your advice, the line up early was genius! I managed to transfer 7000lbs of fuel. I have to crouch down to see the basket housing but I managed it. Took me a good 15 attempts, got closer each time. 

It's a great start! 

Thanks. 

Simon. 

[AG-51_Sabot]

Bubba in CVW8 was a real Cat driver before he was forced to go to a Bug.  He said the preferred wingsweep was between 35-38.  While I'm not an expert in refueling by any sense, it seems to help me stabilize before moving into the basket. 

FYSA "Bubba" is not his callsign

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by AG-51_Sabot

[bond672]

Cheers mate, will look into it

[Ala12Rv-Tundra]

On 7/23/2022 at 12:03 AM, bond672 said:

I followed your advice, the line up early was genius! I managed to transfer 7000lbs of fuel. I have to crouch down to see the basket housing but I managed it. Took me a good 15 attempts, got closer each time. 

It's a great start! 

Thanks. 

Simon. 

Map the "lower the seat" and "rise the seat" commands
I like to put bomb mode, and fly alongside the tanker. Matching airspeed. Then trimming for level flight. Then moving into precontact position.
Sometimes after matching tankers airspeed, I like to move the anemometer bug to show tankers airspeed, for a visual clue for forward and backward movement.
My strong advice is do not move into precontact if the airframe is not trimmed.
Another detail, for learning, avoid S-3 Viking, and use KC-130 and -135 instead. They are easier. Modify the mission so the straight leg of their racetrack pattern is longer, you will deal with turning tankers later on on your training.
For offset alignment, I like to put the left red wingtip of the tanker right at the center of the canopy frame.

All in all, remember AAR doesn´t get easier, you just become more proficient at it, like Mooch said on his video.

Happy flying sir!!

[grant977]

On 7/22/2022 at 1:13 PM, Jayhawk1971 said:

It'll take a while to get used to zero curves on this module at first, but it will pay off in the long run. Just practice flying around in freeflight and get used to the very direct input. I've found that trying to keep the VVI needle centered is good practice.

The Tomcat handles like a warbird (think F-86), so it needs a light touch and lots of trimming. Literally two fingers on the stick (I mounted the stick center, and rest my right elbow on my lap while steering with two fingers and the thumb on the trim button). Admittedly, the force-feedback stick is helping a lot with the trimming.

In that case, here's what I'd do: try to lineup as early as possible, and "stab forward" with the refueling probe. If you miss, back off a couple of feet and try again. If you see you're moving vertically on the basket, don't chase it.

Also, maybe something in this video might help:

 

Jay what FFB stick you using?

[Jayhawk1971]

vor 2 Stunden schrieb grant977:

Jay what FFB stick you using?

Logitech G940 HOTAS. Was always going to replace it, now I'm glad I didn't. Especially with the Apache: I have zero trimming issues thanks to FFB. 

If I had any mechanical skills whatsoever, I would try to fit an extension to it. Alas, I don't dare to.  

Edited July 29, 2022 by Jayhawk1971

[Lt_Jaeger]

35 minutes ago, Jayhawk1971 said:

Logitech G940 HOTAS. Was always going to replace it, now I'm glad I didn't. Especially with the Apache: I have zero trimming issues thanks to FFB. 

If I had any mechanical skills whatsoever, I would try to fit an extension to it. Alas, I don't dare to.  

 

You might want to look at the rhino base. 

(threat is called "honey I developed a FFB Joystick" or something like that) 

[Jayhawk1971]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Lt_Jaeger:

You might want to look at the rhino base. 

(threat is called "honey I developed a FFB Joystick" or something like that) 

I've found the thread. This looks quite promising! Apparently he also wants to add FFB rudders? 

Thanks for the heads-up, that project went completely under my radar.

[Lt_Jaeger]

Just waiting for #44 

[F1GHTS-ON]

Same advice a s Jayhawk - I'd been unable for 12+ months to AAR in the F14. Reduced my curves to zero, and finally can achieve that precision (avoiding the dreaded vertical induced bouncing) flying that allows me plug in (albeit with some effort). Strangely I had put the dead zones in because I couldn't get the auto pilot to engage on ACLS - but I seem to have lost those random "spikes" in input around the centre that I used to have.   I have had a CH Flightstick (the bottom of range) as I really am on a budget, so will never be able to afford the fancy stuff.

Only additional advice I can suggest:  Not sure how often you get to play DCS - but ALWAYS set aside a 10 min AAR practice (own mission?) at end of play so as to retain the riding-1-bike skill