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Valid trackfiles cannot be designated immediately


Harker

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2.7.16.27869 Open Beta
Currently, trackfiles are not available to be designated as soon as they are ready. This is wrong based on available documentation.
I'm going to repeat myself from another thread:
A trackfile is something the Mission Computer (MC) of the Hornet generates. It may or may not correspond to a real aircraft out there, it only exists in the software. Note that I'm talking about radar hits (bricks), that correspond to raw returns. Trackfiles are created, from 2 or more raw hits, only when there is enough info to create them.
For all intents and purposes, a trackfile should always be able to be designated, as soon as it is created, or have an STT lock attempted on it (which may fail), because it is a digital object that the aircraft itself created. It is made with the express purpose of being interacted with. The mere fact that a trackfile was created in the first place, means that the MC has enough info to build it and allow the pilot to interact with it.
A trackfile might have trouble being created, due to various reasons, but if it is created, then it should immediately be able to be designated and have STT attempted on it.
If confirmation is needed, the 742-100 manual describes the process of trackfile creation and their display via the MC.
 
This is in continuation of another similar thread that spoke about MSi trackfiles in general and was moved to the Wishlist: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/305237-designating-based-on-datalink/#comment-5012313. However, I am only talking about trackfiles, as they exist in DCS right now (radar trackfiles only). I am not talking about trackfiles from other MSI sources.
 
FA-18C_cannot designate valid trackfile until shorter range.trk

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yes,at least need 3 sec now,and if so close RAW contact still cant turn to HAFU and NSW Button not working to set L&S and some time TDC manually lock not working too.I dont know what ED modified in this version,thats <profanity>


Edited by zhouyut001
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21 hours ago, Harker said:

2.7.16.27869 Open Beta

Currently, trackfiles are not available to be designated as soon as they are ready. This is wrong based on available documentation.

I'm going to repeat myself from another thread:

A trackfile is something the Mission Computer (MC) of the Hornet generates. It may or may not correspond to a real aircraft out there, it only exists in the software. Note that I'm talking about radar hits (bricks), that correspond to raw returns. Trackfiles are created, from 2 or more raw hits, only when there is enough info to create them.

For all intents and purposes, a trackfile should always be able to be designated, as soon as it is created, or have an STT lock attempted on it (which may fail), because it is a digital object that the aircraft itself created. It is made with the express purpose of being interacted with. The mere fact that a trackfile was created in the first place, means that the MC has enough info to build it and allow the pilot to interact with it.

A trackfile might have trouble being created, due to various reasons, but if it is created, then it should immediately be able to be designated and have STT attempted on it.

If confirmation is needed, the 742-100 manual describes the process of trackfile creation via the MC and their display via the Digital Data Computer.

 

This is in continuation of another similar thread that spoke about MSi trackfiles in general and was moved to the Wishlist: https://forum.dcs.world/topic/305237-designating-based-on-datalink/#comment-5012313. However, I am only talking about trackfiles, as they exist in DCS right now (radar trackfiles only). I am not talking about trackfiles from other MSI sources.

 

FA-18C_cannot designate valid trackfile until shorter range.trk 72.95 kB · 2 downloads

This conflicts with available documents, please PM me your evidence. 

thank you

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2 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

This conflicts with available documents, please PM me your evidence. 

thank you

From one of my group's F/A-18C pilots:

Quote

"You could always designate a track file, either self generated with LTWS or TWS or offboard (F/F or Surv)"

I know this quote has no credibility besides trusting my word (though hopefully you don't consider me a liar), but what part of OP's post conflicts with ED's evidence?

I've not yet seen any evidence that says you cannot designate (L&S) a track file. Understandably it's very difficult to connect the dots on such a complex system with only parts and pieces available to source, but when you combine SME input I believe the answer becomes fairly clear. Does ED have input from a F/A-18C pilot that indicates there are conditions where you can't designate a track file?

Additionally, both the FRM and 742 do not indicate anywhere I know of that you cannot designate a track file. They do, however, specifically indicate that you can designate a track file as the L&S in multiple places.


Edited by MARLAN_
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8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

This conflicts with available documents, please PM me your evidence. 

thank you

But now they always are RAW contacts in TWS mode,not HAFU,I can't use NSW or TDC to set L&S,especially in MP

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On 7/24/2022 at 11:29 AM, BIGNEWY said:
This conflicts with available documents, please PM me your evidence. 
thank you

 @BIGNEWYAny chance you could share your evidence or where to find it? All of the applicable documents that we have access to support the OP.

What you're claiming is correct, is illogical at best, and contradicts everything about the MSI system at worst, based on our available documentation.


Edited by Hulkbust44
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Issue:

When flying fa18c in A/A radar TWS mode, hovering the cursor over a target and depressing TDC cursor often have no response (i.e. does not goes into L+S). I often have to press it three or four time and then I can get a L+S target.

I have checked my hotas and the TDC depress button is working fine (i.e. I can slew my radar by depressing TDC cursor). So the issue is not coming from possible defect of the hotas.

I guess providing a track would not help in this case.

Grateful if ED could look into it.

Many thanks.

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2 hours ago, Hymlee said:

I guess providing a track would not help in this case.

This is EXACTLY the kind of case where a track can help identify if it's something you're doing wrong/missing (often something simple/easy to overlook) or whether it's a reproducible issue that others can create.

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Here is the track file and youtube reply that I've recorded.

The issue happened from 1:53 to 1:58 in the youtube video.

@1:53, the radar detects the target. Since then I've depressing TDC cursor for like 4-5times and I could not get a L+S lock until 1:58.

May I know is that intended and correct as is.

4.trk

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15 minutes ago, Hymlee said:

Here is the track file and youtube reply that I've recorded.

The issue happened from 1:53 to 1:58 in the youtube video.

@1:53, the radar detects the target. Since then I've depressing TDC cursor for like 4-5times and I could not get a L+S lock until 1:58.

May I know is that intended and correct as is.

4.trk 608.57 kB · 0 downloads

It's absolutely a bug. Also mentioned here

https://forum.dcs.world/topic/305485-valid-trackfiles-cannot-be-designated-immediately


Edited by MARLAN_
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I also have the same issue with TWS. Can't switch between L&S though I click undesignate multiple times. For some reason it takes a lot of clicks to make it work.
(On vid it takes almost two minutes to start to work)

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In addition to previous post.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtGJFJhsLCQ
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDRU6C8ij38

It just doesn't work. Basically there's no BVR content for Hornet anymore god damn it.

On 8/7/2022 at 8:03 PM, Melody said:


I also have the same issue with TWS. Can't switch between L&S though I click undesignate multiple times. For some reason it takes a lot of clicks to make it work.
(On vid it takes almost two minutes to start to work)

 


Edited by Melody
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On 8/7/2022 at 10:03 AM, Melody said:

I also have the same issue with TWS. Can't switch between L&S though I click undesignate multiple times. For some reason it takes a lot of clicks to make it work.
(On vid it takes almost two minutes to start to work)

Isn't `undesignate` supposed to switch to a different target on Hornet? If you want to undesignate, I believe you need to click the button on the MFD.

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Isn't `undesignate` supposed to switch to a different target on Hornet? If you want to undesignate, I believe you need to click the button on the MFD.
I think that's what they mean. They're trying to designate an L&S by pressing the Undesignate button on the stick and it's not working until some time later. I could of course be wrong, but that's what I understood from there post.

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11 03 page 11 paragraph 88

On 7/24/2022 at 5:29 PM, BIGNEWY said:

This conflicts with available documents, please PM me your evidence. 

thank you

This response will contain directions to paragraphs, but no extracts from said paragraphs, from a document that cannot be posted under the forums rules. I shall PM the extracts in accompaniment.

Please refer to:

A1-F18AC-742-100 011 03 page 3 paragraph 18 - For description of what an MSI trackfile is

A1-F18AC-742-100 011 03 page 11 paragraph 88 - For description of what happens when you use the cursor on one of these MSI trackfiles.

The handling of MSI trackfiles as Harker describes is explicitly laid out in these paragraphs, thankfully leaving no room for confusion on this matter. It can be said confidently that all trackfiles can be designated as L&S, DT2 or be the target of an STT command, using all normally available means (acquisition cursor, undesignate, etc).

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I'd love to see someone from ED publish their model of APG73. Parameters and limits, mech and some sort of a operating procedures for most common tactical situations, regardless of how they changed or estimated them. We could at least see whether something is fudged up after each update or they are following their model, no matter how silly it may seem to be.

Then, the folks with the 'docs' can duke it out with the team.  

If the radar model remains along the current lines...  Is there any way to 'remove' the radar (leave the gun w/ funnel alone!) by adjusting the weight and CG so I can show off in front of my AI crowd? :biggrin:

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Just the fact that the mprf apg68 has the same tws range as the apg73 in hprf (~43nm) shows how the hornet radar is misrepresented

On 8/8/2022 at 10:56 PM, oldcrusty said:

I'd love to see someone from ED publish their model of APG73. Parameters and limits, mech and some sort of a operating procedures for most common tactical situations, regardless of how they changed or estimated them. We could at least see whether something is fudged up after each update or they are following their model, no matter how silly it may seem to be.

Then, the folks with the 'docs' can duke it out with the team.  

If the radar model remains along the current lines...  Is there any way to 'remove' the radar (leave the gun w/ funnel alone!) by adjusting the weight and CG so I can show off in front of my AI crowd? :biggrin:

 

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On 7/24/2022 at 6:29 PM, BIGNEWY said:

This conflicts with available documents, please PM me your evidence. 

thank you

I would love to have a look to these documents as well, if you can share in PM.

 

Because what Harker says sounds perfectly logic.

The fact that the radar provides raw data that are processed, filtered, merged with other sensors and shared data, all of this to give a trackfile that can't be interacted with doesn't make any sense. Engineeringly speaking.

If at least the symbology was different, that would be a hint that we have the beginning of what could be a solid contact that will be soon correlated, this would be understandable. 

Think of the focus loss of the pilot, fighting with its commands to select the trackfiles that cannot be selected... It can't be acceptable...

Is there a reason for this design ?

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