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Cyrano IV radar improvments


Harlikwin

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So,

I'm mostly hoping the current radar "model" is a placeholder for something better. Currently this radar doesn't really behave much like a radar at all, it seems to be using FC3 level radar "logic" i.e. pop in detection range, and "notching". along with a pretty animated "texture" which is supposed to be ground clutter but isn't.

Also the "clutter effect seems to be done wrong anyway its far too weak and targets are way too easy to pick out as you can see in the following vid at around the 6 minute mark. I mean look at that target vs the ground clutter returns, nearly impossible to pick out. And at least anecdotally the Cyrano was pretty much garbage in look down modes and at lower altitudes where sidlobe and mainlobe clutter presented additional challanges for the MTI design.

Can aerges give us some hope that you guys are gonna make a better radar model like the Razbam M2k one? 

Vid.

 

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1 hour ago, Harlikwin said:

So,

I'm mostly hoping the current radar "model" is a placeholder for something better. Currently this radar doesn't really behave much like a radar at all, it seems to be using FC3 level radar "logic" i.e. pop in detection range, and "notching". along with a pretty animated "texture" which is supposed to be ground clutter but isn't.

Also the "clutter effect seems to be done wrong anyway its far too weak and targets are way too easy to pick out as you can see in the following vid at around the 6 minute mark. I mean look at that target vs the ground clutter returns, nearly impossible to pick out. And at least anecdotally the Cyrano was pretty much garbage in look down modes and at lower altitudes where sidlobe and mainlobe clutter presented additional challanges for the MTI design.

Can aerges give us some hope that you guys are gonna make a better radar model like the Razbam M2k one? 

Vid.

 

This is a Cyrano IV-1 and does not have DATEP filtering

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4 hours ago, Snappy said:

This might be better off under "wishlist".

Kind regards,
Snappy

Not really. At this point having a decently modeled radar in DCS is become the norm, whether ED likes it or not. And I hope Aerges can do a good job with it.

 

Especially when you can basically do a pretty good job modeling it in Matlab. It shouldn't be too hard to literally do what Razbam did with the M2k and run this on a 2nd core. 

https://www.mathworks.com/help/radar/ug/generate-clutter-and-target-returns-for-mti-radar.html

https://www.mathworks.com/help/radar/ug/ground-clutter-mitigation-with-moving-target-indication-mti-radar.html

 

 

4 hours ago, Get_Lo said:

This is a Cyrano IV-1 and does not have DATEP filtering

You want to in detail explain to me what DATEP actually does? I have my theories and a bit of background with it, but I'm searching for enlightenment.

Also, Iraqi mirage pilots are a source of alot of the claims of poor lookdown performance, and I'm pretty sure the EQ's had the most modern Cyrano. After all, Giraffe tactics were implemented for several reasons. 

 


Edited by Harlikwin
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35 minutes ago, Harlikwin said:

 

You want to in detail explain to me what DATEP actually does? I have my theories and a bit of background with it, but I'm searching for enlightenment.

Also, Iraqi mirage pilots are a source of alot of the claims of poor lookdown performance, and I'm pretty sure the EQ's had the most modern Cyrano. After all, Giraffe tactics were implemented for several reasons. 

 

 

well, thats the fun part. I cant find anyone who knows exactly what it does either, I just know it was a different approach to filtering than the previous generations.

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1 hour ago, Get_Lo said:

well, thats the fun part. I cant find anyone who knows exactly what it does either, I just know it was a different approach to filtering than the previous generations.

The acronym means Diffuse Echo attenuator (in french) basically.

So here is the deal. 

the IV "M" is the same radar, with the same PRF issues, the same antenna and sidelobe issues and so forth. Most likely its the same basic MTI implementation etc. Given that it lacks the low alt mode and medium alt modes of the IV from the manual, it most likely automates that for the pilot, but likely the actual modes are still there behind the scenes, just automated now. And now with DATEP stuck on top as basically a post-processor to help with some clutter. So, while yes its far better than the original due to the automation of modes, its not adding a whole lot in terms of filtering. 

So. Again, at low alt the radar is gonna hoover up a ton of MLC and SLC. At higher alt looking down, MLC filtering is gonna be the classical lower PRF MTI problems.

Currently the "clutter" on the radar doesn't change AT ALL, you can be at 30k feet looking up. Or at 3 ft looking fwd, or at 10k looking "down" and that "sparkly texture" is the same for all 3 cases.

It should look like:

High alt looking up, its a pulse radar at that point, so aside from weather clutter it should basically be the most beautifully clear scope in the world.
3 ft looking fwd, yeah forget it, you don't have a radar, you have big glowing blob of clutter on your scope

10k looking down in MTI, go look at that vid. Good luck, it can work, but... Well its not easy mode.

 

On the upside, it does seem to drop contacts "in the notch" which for a radar of this type is gonna be few miles wide, at least in lookdown. 

 

 


Edited by Harlikwin

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3 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

Not really. At this point having a decently modeled radar in DCS is become the norm, whether ED likes it or not. And I hope Aerges can do a good job with it.

 

Especially when you can basically do a pretty good job modeling it in Matlab. It shouldn't be too hard to literally do what Razbam did with the M2k and run this on a 2nd core. 

https://www.mathworks.com/help/radar/ug/generate-clutter-and-target-returns-for-mti-radar.html

https://www.mathworks.com/help/radar/ug/ground-clutter-mitigation-with-moving-target-indication-mti-radar.html

 

 

You want to in detail explain to me what DATEP actually does? I have my theories and a bit of background with it, but I'm searching for enlightenment.

Also, Iraqi mirage pilots are a source of alot of the claims of poor lookdown performance, and I'm pretty sure the EQ's had the most modern Cyrano. After all, Giraffe tactics were implemented for several reasons. 

 

 

I meant Aerges‘ own Mirage F-1 wishlist subforum, which they have. Not the official ED one…

I don’t disagree with you, that increasingly accurate radar simulation is being implemented and sure it would be nice if Aerges could join in.
Still even EDs own radar and rwr implementations are sadly lagging behind 3rd party, so I would call in-depth radar simulation „standard“ and more of a wish or sign of excellence.

Hence wishlist. But feel free to argue semantics.


Edited by Snappy
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I mean it can be done, the F-14 in Pulse mode returns a ton of false returns and it changes based on terrain height and the radar antenna elevation. So its possible.

 

I personally think this is not the final version of the radar but one they could make as a start. This jet is incredibly detailed in a lot of parts especially the engine. Which their last module the team worked on the C-101 had a ton of stuff in how the aircraft behaved that a lot of other modules don't.

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1 hour ago, Snappy said:

I meant Aerges‘ own Mirage F-1 wishlist subforum, which they have. Not the official ED one…

I don’t disagree with you, that increasingly accurate radar simulation is being implemented and sure it would be nice if Aerges could join in.
Still even EDs own radar and rwr implementations are sadly lagging behind 3rd party, so I would call in-depth radar simulation „standard“ and more of a wish or sign of excellence.

Hence wishlist. But feel free to argue semantics.

 

Problem is that "wishlist" is pretty much "ignored deathlist" on the forum. So thats why I don't want this there. 

50 minutes ago, Crash2 said:

I mean it can be done, the F-14 in Pulse mode returns a ton of false returns and it changes based on terrain height and the radar antenna elevation. So its possible.

 

I personally think this is not the final version of the radar but one they could make as a start. This jet is incredibly detailed in a lot of parts especially the engine. Which their last module the team worked on the C-101 had a ton of stuff in how the aircraft behaved that a lot of other modules don't.

Oh I 1000% agree, the level of detail in the F1 is amazing (esp engine stuff). Which is why I want the radar on the same level. Even if the end result is its not that great. 

For me the F1 so far is amazing, amazing, amazing, get to the radar... OOF Fc3 with a texture? please fix it. 


Edited by Harlikwin
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16 hours ago, spikef22 said:

Do keep in mind this is Aerges first attempt at making an fcr for one of their modules and they needed EDs help making it so I imagine it will mature. not to mention we will be seeing a brand new radar set on the F1M

I'm well aware. Hence the comment that I hope that Aerges will go whole hog and do a Razbam level "sim" of the radar.

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From the streams I was assuming the radar was the last big thing that was done, so I think its also the thing that will still get a lot of work done.

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  • 2 weeks later...

There is a good document describing the history of French radar development (appended), that also describes the Cyrano IV. It's a non coherent Magnetron radar that CSF tried to make reject main lobe clutter with a clutter coherent MTI block filter. It didn't work (as per the document) as the antenna used in the Cyrano IV, the inverted Cassegrain has rather high sidelobes. Clutter comes in at all relative speeds through the sidelobes and therefore lands in the echo space outside the MTI suppression. Your faint aircraft echo is now competing with ground echos. The Russians had the same antenna type (it has many advantages, no Waveguide flexible joins, agile twist plate, but at the expense of sidelobes) and transmitter in late Mig-23s, tried the same type of MTI suppression and had the same problems. 

For lookdown you either need HPRF and a doppler filter bank (your clutter doppler frequency is outside the echo range) or MPRF, a multi-PRF scheme (to eliminate blind spots), a doppler filter bank and an antenna with very low sidelobes.  

French radar history.pdf


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