[POLL] Which versions of Phantoms would the community be interested in after the F-4E?

[sparrow88]

On 7/30/2022 at 7:09 PM, bies said:

F-4S still had interesting features like first operational helmet mounted sight VTAS, slats like F-4E, partially digitalized weapon control system.

After this comment the S is the only version I want lol.

[bies]

12 minutes ago, sparrow88 said:

After this comment the S is the only version I want lol.

F-4S would be nice, it had two disadvantages that's why i listed it only at 3rd place: it was relatively significantly less capable than F-4B and -J during it's time of Tomcats and Eagles, it was simply becoming outdated as soon as it entered service. And, contrary to F-4B and -J, it didn't see any combat IRL so it lacks the atmosphere or combat variants.

[exhausted]

1 hour ago, bies said:

F-4S would be nice, it had two disadvantages that's why i listed it only at 3rd place: it was relatively significantly less capable than F-4B and -J during it's time of Tomcats and Eagles, it was simply becoming outdated as soon as it entered service. And, contrary to F-4B and -J, it didn't see any combat IRL so it lacks the atmosphere or combat variants.

Since when has historical combat use been a concern for DCS? They released the P-51 when the closest aircraft in time to the P-51's combat use were the B-52 and Tu-95. Similarly to your first point, the F-4E variant we are getting was already obsolete in the age of the F-15, F-16, MiG-29 and Su-27s it would have faced. In fact, the only USAF version that really would be at home with the DCS plane set is the F-4G Wild Weasel. 

[Kev2go]

On 7/29/2022 at 10:46 AM, F-2 said:

I believe Macdonald Douglas did or at least was heavily involved with the Kai upgrade, much like Boeing is right now with the on going F-15 upgrade. As for the missiles the Japanese defense agency had fairly detailed data including live testing on their website till 2002. You can still write the Mod and request it. Data on the AAM-3 is posted and discussed on the war thunder forum right now.

In addition f4ej Kai is also now retired from military service  

Although tbh I think I would prefer the f4f ice peace Rhine over the f4ej Kai , just because of the apg65 > apg66,  that and the f4f has the wing slats.

 since heartblur is already working with the luftwaffe for eurofighter it would maybe be easier getting documentation for the luftwaffe phantom? 

 

[bies]

10 hours ago, exhausted said:

Since when has historical combat use been a concern for DCS? They released the P-51 when the closest aircraft in time to the P-51's combat use were the B-52 and Tu-95. Similarly to your first point, the F-4E variant we are getting was already obsolete in the age of the F-15, F-16, MiG-29 and Su-27s it would have faced. In fact, the only USAF version that really would be at home with the DCS plane set is the F-4G Wild Weasel. 

I didn't say anything about it being a concern. I said i just treat it a disadvantage compared to more combat aircrafts which have more atmosphere, if there is possible to chose between few variants.

I.e. if we would have P-51H instead of P-51D it's lack of combat use would make it way less appealing then P-51D - iconic WW2 aircraft. Despite P-51H having better performance and capabilities.

[Heinlein]

When making a module one should choose the version of the plane that is the most typical and most used. For F-16's that is the C version. For the P-51 it is the D version. For the F-14 it is the A model and for the F-4 it is the E phantom that is the most phantom. All other variants are mere bonuses. One have to remember that the G and TX versions of the F-4 is simply an attempt to extend the service years by a few more years on what is at that time antiquated airframes. That is why the F-4G had a short service span until it was replaced by F-16's that did the job better and cheaper. 
And I also think the E model fits perfectly with DCS as we have more aircrafts from the 1950 - 1990 era then any other period. The huey, mi-8, mig-15,19 & 21, F-5E, F-14A, mirage F-1 etc and lets not forget coming modules like the mig-23 and SU-22. 

[sparrow88]

28 minutes ago, Heinlein said:

When making a module one should choose the version of the plane that is the most typical and most used.

Disagree wholeheartedly. I want modules that will give me the most fun in DCS, which has nothing to do (at least for me) with how many units of them were made.

[exhausted]

4 hours ago, Heinlein said:

When making a module one should choose the version of the plane that is the most typical and most used ... All other variants are mere bonuses. 

I also disagree with this. The selected planes should not be what was most used; they should be what plausibly would have been used during a certain timeframe. The F-4E variants we are getting are huge outliers, even for the late-80s scenarios people are making. The F-4S is a much better fit and it aligns better in terms of timeframe and doctrine. The last -S's were retired in the early 1990s, making challenges against MiG-29s and Su-27s possible. The -E variant is basically a Vietnam variant great for..... ?

Edited August 5, 2022 by exhausted

[bucklehead]

1 hour ago, exhausted said:

I also disagree with this. The selected planes should not be what was most used; they should be what plausibly would have been used during a certain timeframe. The F-4E variants we are getting are huge outliers, even for the late-80s scenarios people are making. The F-4S is a much better fit and it aligns better in terms of timeframe and doctrine. The last -S's were retired in the early 1990s, making challenges against MiG-29s and Su-27s possible. The -E variant is basically a Vietnam variant great for..... ?

 

Last I checked, it was USAF F-4Es that made it into Desert Storm. Where was the F-4S? 

[Heinlein]

hace 2 horas, exhausted dijo:

The -E variant is basically a Vietnam variant great for..... ?

Persian gulf scenarios. Iran used them extensively in the iran iraq war and up to this day. People like me in the cold war community are planing tons of scenarios that involve the E. And practicly any 70's and 80's scenario finds room for it. But sure if you only aiming for the 1990 timeframe the E is not for you. By then the F-4 was beeing phased out anyway so one can ask what it is good for anyway in that time. The F-4's finest hour was from mid 60's to the mid 80's  

[Hummingbird]

F4S imo, although I'd really like the J too. 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Hummingbird

[Dragon1-1]

19 minutes ago, Heinlein said:

By then the F-4 was beeing phased out anyway so one can ask what it is good for anyway in that time.

Bombing. The F-4 has an impressive payload of dumb bombs that it can carry on its many hardpoints, and the bombsight on the E, while not quite as good as on the newer jets, is still fairly accurate in dive-toss mode, and bombing with the pipper is also not that hard if you pay attention to your numbers. The Mudhen can do this somewhat better (although the Phantom can carry MERs with 6 bombs, so it might have the advantage in number of bombs, if not weight), but the E model Phantom is advanced enough to be able to survive and accomplish its mission on a 1990 battlefield, assuming it has adequate fighter escorts.

[exhausted]

3 hours ago, bucklehead said:

Last I checked, it was USAF F-4Es that made it into Desert Storm. Where was the F-4S? 

The F-4Es flew four missions in Desert Storm, and flew directly to the Boneyard/AMARC.

 

The F-4S Marine'd on until 1992. 

[TLTeo]

^ This. The only F-4 variant that contributed meaningfully to Desert Storm was the F-4G.

[bucklehead]

51 minutes ago, exhausted said:

The F-4Es flew four missions in Desert Storm, and flew directly to the Boneyard/AMARC.

 

The F-4S Marine'd on until 1992. 

In what capacity is the F-4S a much better fit aligning in timeframe and doctrine than the F-4E? If the F-4E went out the door in 91, and the F-4S in 92, the timeframe argument doesn’t make much sense to me. Doctrinally wise, are we talking about use case? If so, both had replacements already in service. 
 

Both the MiG-29 and Su-27 came into service in the mid 80’s, well within the operational window of the F-4E. 
 

I don’t think you’re a fan of the F-4E, or at least it’s not your first pick - that’s fine. We all need to show Heatblur that there is demand for more Phantom variants. 
 

 

[bucklehead]

34 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

^ This. The only F-4 variant that contributed meaningfully to Desert Storm was the F-4G.

The RF-4C guys may have something to say about that. 

[Mike Force Team]

@bucklehead Once Heatblur announces their first EA version of the F-4, I am certain they will have more variants in the delivery pipeline.  I want to use the F-4 variant for SEAD and for Wild Weasel (fun, fun, fun).  Heatblur will not disappoint us.

Mike Force Team.

[exhausted]

5 minutes ago, Mike Force Team said:

@bucklehead Once Heatblur announces their first EA version of the F-4, I am certain they will have more variants in the delivery pipeline.  I want to use the F-4 variant for SEAD and for Wild Weasel (fun, fun, fun).  Heatblur will not disappoint us.

Mike Force Team.

They said it's the -E. The likelihood of more variants is probably extremely low. How many projects survive into further developments? There is more daylight between an F-4E and an F-4J than there is between an F-14A and an F-14B.

[TLTeo]

9 minutes ago, bucklehead said:

The RF-4C guys may have something to say about that. 

True, I forgot about those. Still not F-4Es though.

[exhausted]

17 minutes ago, bucklehead said:

In what capacity is the F-4S a much better fit aligning in timeframe and doctrine than the F-4E? If the F-4E went out the door in 91, and the F-4S in 92, the timeframe argument doesn’t make much sense to me. Doctrinally wise, are we talking about use case? If so, both had replacements already in service. 
 

Both the MiG-29 and Su-27 came into service in the mid 80’s, well within the operational window of the F-4E. 
 

I don’t think you’re a fan of the F-4E, or at least it’s not your first pick - that’s fine. We all need to show Heatblur that there is demand for more Phantom variants. 
 

 

The reason the F-4S is a better fit during this timeframe is the -S has better avionics, a better radar and better flight performance than the F-4E. The F-4E is unnecessarily weighed down with a lot of additions necessary to turn the Phantom into an Air Force bomb mule. Being in Marine service in 1992, the -S would be more expeditionary and have a bigger relative role in the Corps' smaller air fleet, compared to the Air Force's massive air fleet of 4th gens. Not to mention, the F-4S is just much cooler than the F-4E.

2 minutes ago, TLTeo said:

True, I forgot about those. Still not F-4Es though.

I would gladly take an RF-4C module that goes into depth on the recon mission for DCS.

[TLTeo]

3 minutes ago, exhausted said:

I would gladly take an RF-4C module that goes into depth on the recon mission for DCS.

Yea it could be fun. I'm excited to see how that works out for IndiaFoxtEcho's modules.

[bucklehead]

18 minutes ago, exhausted said:

S has better avionics, a better radar and better flight performance than the F-4E. The F-4E is unnecessarily weighed down with a lot of additions necessary to turn the Phantom into an Air Force bomb mule. Being in Marine service in 1992, the -S would be more expeditionary and have a bigger relative role in the Corps' smaller air fleet, compared to the Air Force's massive air fleet of 4th gens. Not to mention, the F-4S is just much cooler than the F-4E.

I would argue that the F-4S and the F-4E, especially in the late 80s early 90s filled two different roles for two different services, and as a result you get two different variations designed to prioritize different things. 
 

In 1992, the Hornet, as disgusting as it is, had pretty much replaced the Phantom in USMC use. If it was to play such a critical role in Marine Air, even all the way up to 92, I would have expected it to play a role in Desert Storm where the US pretty much brought everything. It did not. 
 

I believe that you believe the F-4S is much cooler. That’s cool! 

[Bremspropeller]

Which kind of "F-4B" are we talking about? A 1962 aircraft or a late 70s VTAS, SEAM and AIM-9G F-4N?

[Dragon1-1]

The 1962 one, basically the first Phantom to be made in significant numbers.

[bies]

18 hours ago, exhausted said:

The -E variant is basically a Vietnam variant great for..... ?

We are having two F-4E variants, one from 1970s, one from 1980s.

Great for? Great for nearly any conflict F-4E was being used, Vietnam war, Iran-Iraq war where we have practically all assets for both sides, Israeli-Arab wars like War on Attrition 1970, Yom Kippur war 1973, Mole Cricket over Bekaa Valley 1982 and all what if scenarios with different remaining F-4E operators all around the world since 1970s like Turkey, Greece, Japan, Australia, Egypt. 

And F-4S? Only fictional scenarios. And I'm not extreme, I still see a place for the F-4S, but let's not be silly, the F-4E was incomparably more relevant than the F-4S.

 

In short F-4B in early 1960s was the best fighter aircraft anywhere in the world, with cutting edge performance, holding speed and climb records, able to fight every most modern opponent and win, still having multirole capabilities. F-4J in late 1960s was still top fighter as well.

F-4S in 1980s was just a way cheaper substitute of modern and capable F-14, giving up prestigious role of a fleet defender and being relegated to secondary duties. Libyan Su-22s and MiG-23s were delt with by Tomcats, for a reason. Everything has its own time.